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Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by weland on Thursday January 16, 2014 @03:06PM (#7072157)
I know OpenBSD's reputation is primarily security, but I use it for a different reason. It's simple, stable, and doesn't break.

Back when I was in high school and I had a lot of free time and all that, the various incarnations of Linux were a delight. Even after that, I still went with it out of inertia and spent many evenings tweaking Gentoo.

I eventually just goddamn gave up. I got sick of every upgrade breaking something in my system and then especially got sick of deciding between figuring out how to use wpa_supplicant and installing NetworkManager which screws up my network settings as soon as I plug in the Ethernet cable while I'm still on my wireless. In a flight of rage I thought ok, I've had enough of this crap, and went the OpenBSD route.

Seriously, it has all the nice parts of Plan 9 while still actually being able to run all the tools I need. I still have Linux and Windows boxes for the odd tools that don't work on anything else (I do embedded systems for a living, and there's a lot of vendor lockdown there), but for my day-to-day workstation, I found nothing better.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by chrissmithuk on Thursday January 16, 2014 @05:47PM (#7073039)
Similar story. Signed up to post this :)

In 2009, our development team lost a whole 10 hours to a degraded Linux mdadm RAID1 that wouldn't rebuild due to an obscure error after a digger severed our power and internet connection. No internet access as power came up first so no access to online help. mdadm is buggy. Documentation sucks. Error messages suck. Only recourse was a full restore from tape which took a long time. This was the last straw after over a decade of dealing with this crap from network dropouts, laziness, half-arsed features, distro wars, politics and churn.

Some previous Unix experience in the late 1990s with OpenBSD on an old SparcStation 5 (the only thing that would run on that machine nicely) jumped into my mind on the way home. It had that warm, fuzzy, well-engineered, well-documented feeling about it, like an old HP RPN calculator. Got home, downloaded it and installed it on my laptop, replacing Ubuntu.

4 years down the line: one happy person with the same laptop running 5.4 still with that warm, fuzzy, well-engineered, well-documented feeling.

Not once has it let me down. Not for a minute in the 4000+ hours I've been using it. It just works.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by davidgerard on Thursday January 16, 2014 @03:26PM (#7072295)
And OpenBSD has the best-written man pages in all of Unix.

When I got thrown in the deep end with Solaris, many years ago, I'd read the Solaris man page for the options, but first I'd read the OpenBSD man page to work out what the hell the command was for and why.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by weland on Thursday January 16, 2014 @03:38PM (#7072367)
Yes, that's an important point. The Linux manpages are a joke, they're half useless almost all the time.
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by SwellJoe on Thursday January 16, 2014 @05:04PM (#7072844)
The most offensive man pages are GNU project pages that effectively say, "for real documentation read the info page". Which, as someone that can never remember how to use info, is frustrating and just serves to piss me off...my first thought is "and a big fuck you to you, too". And then I look it up online so I don't have to read how to use info before I can read how to use the command I was looking for docs on.

I don't know if this is common practice anymore...I don't remember the last time I saw a defective man page like this, but I still remember it with great anger. I love GNU, but I hate the kind of condescension it takes to try to force someone to use a different tool because you believe it to be superior to the standard tool (when it's really not; I find info pages to be obtuse to create, and difficult to read).

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by cytzol on Friday January 17, 2014 @02:48PM (#7077999)
GNU's stance on man pages is entirely correct! For real documentation, read the info page, but you rarely want real documentation, you just want a quick example or the command-line invocation syntax, or what a particular argument does. And 99% of the time, that will be in a man page.

The problem lies when you want to find something 1% of the time, and it's here that man pages become sprawling unindexed messes. For example, take a look at the man pages for perl or zsh: you'll have no chance finding anything, as those programs are so large that they need a wealth of documentation to go into them. At the same time, the info page for ls contains the things you rarely need to see such as exactly how things are sorted or the minute details of timestamp formatting. If this were all in the man page, you'd complain that you couldn't find anything in it.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by faboo on Friday January 17, 2014 @05:10PM (#7078779)
I don't know, I always found the perl and zsh man pages to be rather pleasant. They were sprawling, sure, but having long ago given up on brevity, they have no fear of meticulously describing how a feature or flag works. And they're just man pages, so you don't need to read the manual-for-the-manual first like I always find myself doing when I'm forced to use info.
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by robot_t on Friday January 17, 2014 @09:11AM (#7075802)
I was like you once, then I learned you could do e.g.: info coreutils|less

Now I no longer have anger management issues

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by oftenwrong on Friday January 17, 2014 @10:51AM (#7076357)
Wow, thanks for the tip. I will never have to use info again!
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by Gracana on Friday January 17, 2014 @10:01AM (#7076066)
Well that sure is handy. Hopefully I'll remember that next time.
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by marcosdumay on Thursday January 16, 2014 @05:36PM (#7072986)
Info pages are hypertext, and because of that they are better suited for a complete manual for a complex program than man pages.

But we have other hypertext formats available. It'd be better if GNU started using some format that everybody already usees and knows how to write.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by chrissmithuk on Thursday January 16, 2014 @05:57PM (#7073087)
This fundamentally goes against the Unix philosophy though which is to provide small well-defined parts from which you can construct a complete solution from.

If you need a complex manual for a complex program, something is wrong.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by wfraser on Friday January 17, 2014 @08:22AM (#7075577)
"GNU's Not Unix."
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by morb on Saturday January 18, 2014 @01:01PM (#7081605)
What does this even mean? The name GNU itself is a joke.

I mean, the project wants to create an operating system that looks like UNIX, acts like UNIX, smells like UNIX, but from scratch with appropriate license that allows usage and access to source to anyone - so that the project doesn't get into legal trouble from whoever actually owns UNIX?

So drunk Stallman in 1981 says: "hik, let's call this, hik operhikating system GNU, hik, because it's not UNIX hik, but it sure looks like one, hik, but it's not, hik, but it kinda is hik, but it's not theirs hik it's everyone's hik". That's how I like to imagine it happened.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by chrissmithuk on Friday January 17, 2014 @08:39AM (#7075648)
Which is probably the greatest problem with it.
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by jff on Thursday January 16, 2014 @05:56PM (#7073084)
info pages are yet another artifact of RMS's sad devotion to ITS and other dead environments.
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by kbenson on Thursday January 16, 2014 @05:20PM (#7072916)
This was my impression as well after using OpenBSD, and when I pointed that out a while back on HN, it was pointed out that the core linux manpages have gotten much, much better in many cases[1]. In that respect, it may be another example of the GP comment.

1: My go-to example was always ifconfig, but linux's manpage for ip(8) really isn't that bad, as is actually the linux equivalent. Quality probably varies quite a bit based on the package that supplies the utility though, while OpenBSD's quality is fairly universal.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by voltagex_ on Thursday January 16, 2014 @06:31PM (#7073222)
I wonder where the best place to report manpage bugs to is - for things like the builtin commands that may not have a single upstream. Does Ubuntu pull in a manpage update from Fedora? What about the other way around?
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by flomo on Thursday January 16, 2014 @11:37PM (#7074330)
If it is a GNU utility, the man page usually contains a bug report link. AFAICT GNU is the upstream for all their documentation.
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by enneff on Thursday January 16, 2014 @04:49PM (#7072782)
What parts of Plan 9 are you referring to?
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by weland on Friday January 17, 2014 @10:45AM (#7076324)
Only subjective, but technical ones. Simplicity and stability of well-integrated userspace tools, sane defaults, good portability.
Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by keithpeter on Saturday January 18, 2014 @06:11AM (#7080746)
"...and installing NetworkManager which screws up my network settings as soon as I plug in the Ethernet cable while I'm still on my wireless."

Any bug numbers? I'm not seeing that on Debian Wheezy or CentOS.

But I have just ordered a CD set to try this OpenBSD to see what all the fuss is about and to learn something.

Re:OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to k... by sliverstorm on Thursday January 16, 2014 @04:17PM (#7072611)
It's like you are me, from a couple years ago.