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Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by pron on Thursday January 09, 2014 @08:27AM (#7030309)
I don't know much about the particulars of BitCoin mechanics, but the general spirit of this story seems like a natural evolvement of any unregulated organization. People who favor unregulated markets/societies dislike the concentration of power in the hands of a central authority, but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few. I've read a hypothesis[1] that it was this dynamics that propelled the neolithic revolution (the transformation of humans from nomadic hunters-gatherers to settled farmers): most people suffered as consequence (hunger, disease, less leisure), but a few benefitted greatly.

The same thing happened in the American Gilded Age. In that period of unprecedented (and largely unregulated) growth, much of the US population became quickly enslaved by a few members of an elite group, later called the robber barons (Rockefeller, Frick, JP Morgan, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Mellon et al.), and it took tremendous efforts by the American press and then by President Roosevelt (the first) to partially dismantle that semi-feudal structure and strengthen the central government, to free the populace from the stranglehold of the robber barons.

While a central power can be abusive, it is almost always better than feudal oligarchy, at least if it is governed more-or-less democratically.

So while BitCoin is an algorithm intended to avoid a single organizing entity, it is no replacement for a social pact, enforced politically by some fair means. Perhaps a better algorithm could somehow prevent any sort of concentrated power, but I doubt it. The desire for power (even with the best of intentions) is so essential to humans, that it probably cannot be circumvented by technology alone.

[1]: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/12/19/111219fa_fact_...

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by huxley on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:24AM (#7030596)
You might be interested in reading about The Iron Law of Oligarchy (an influential "social law" that was proposed in 1911 by Robert Michels)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

It is a pretty dismal assessment of the likelihood that a democratic institution can avoid becoming oligarchic (spoiler: Michels believed it was inevitably impossible as the institution grew in size and complexity, years later he abandoned his anarchist beliefs and became a fascist in Italy)

There are a few historical counter-examples to the Iron Law of Oligarchy, but I don't follow the details of Bitcoin closely enough to know whether it is resistant to the factors Robert Michels described.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by pron on Thursday January 09, 2014 @11:15AM (#7031276)
Thank you for that! I guess it's sort of a reversed second law of thermodynamics.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by simbyotic on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:35AM (#7030647)
"In that period of unprecedented (and largely unregulated) growth, much of the US population became quickly enslaved by a few members of an elite group, later called the robber barons (Rockefeller, Frick, JP Morgan, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Mellon et al.)"

You ought to rethink what you define as "enslavement". As far as I am aware, neither Rockefeller, nor JP Morgan, nor Carnegie "enslaved" the US population when they helped transform the by then agrarian nation into the industrial and economic powerhouse it later became. They didn't use force, as far as I am aware, in their dealings and the wealth of their achievements certainly wasn't created at the expense of those who didn't.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by monochr on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:51AM (#7030736)
>They didn't use force, as far as I am aware

Then you're not very aware.

During the Gilded Age there were hundreds of strikes a large minority of which ended with the murder of the organizers and arrest of the leadership, an incomplete list thanks to wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strikes#1850.E2.80.9318...

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by cwp on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:20AM (#7030903)
Did the robber barons kidnap people from Africa, ship them across the sea in chains and force them to work by whipping them if they didn't? No.

Still, have you ever heard the song "Sixteen Tons?"[1] You might recognize the lines "another day older and deeper in debt" and "I owe my soul to the company store." It's about the life of a coal miner in Kentucky. Those lines refer to a system where the company paid its workers in vouchers that they could use to buy food and clothing from the company store. Prices at the company store were higher than the workers could afford on the wages they received, but since they didn't get cash they didn't have the option to buy elsewhere. So they'd buy on credit and gradually build up a debt to the company that they had no way to pay off.

Is that slavery? Perhaps not technically, since the workers weren't owned by the company and couldn't be sold. But they didn't have many choices, either. They were basically stuck doing a fixed amount of work each day in exchange for food and lodging. Sounds an awful lot like slavery in practice.

[1] Obligator wikipedia link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Tons

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by simbyotic on Thursday January 09, 2014 @04:18PM (#7033328)
Having to work to each day for food and lodging is like slavery in practice? That a preposterous notion.

Whether you live in a desert island, a small village with no water or electricty, or New York, you will still have to face the practical demands of your survival, of which food and lodging are the primary - in the sense that they are the most immediate,- but not your only, concerns. Whether by hunting and killing your own food, or buy buying it from the supermarket, the facts are the same: you have to work for your survival, it is not guaranteed by nature. And for myself,if I may, I take having to work so I can buy my favorite food and drink at the supermarket every day over having to savagely hunt and kill the food I eat.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by true_religion on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:25AM (#7030939)
Wait....

It has been a while since I studied this era, but my understanding is that Rockefeller, Frick, JP Morgan, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Mellon et al. were the "good guys" like in the instance of Carnegie steel which gave back tremendously to the community.

The named figures of this period, who still have visible fortunes today, were generally better than the grand morass that were known as the robber barons.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by pron on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:55AM (#7031154)
Some of them were great philanthropists who generously donated to causes of their choosing some of the fortune they had amassed by exploiting and disenfranchising vast populations. Those I named were chief among the robber barons, and some of their descendants, perhaps most notably the Rockefellers, tried to distance themselves from or atone for the means by which their forefathers had come by their wealth.

This cartoon[1] shows "infant" Roosevelt battling the Rockefeller and JP Morgan "serpents". No, they weren't the good guys by any means, despite their philanthropic deeds. They most certainly industrialized the US, but so did Stalin in the USSR (though most would agree that the American robber barons were better than Stalin :)).

[1]: http://newsjournalist.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/the-infant...

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by dragontamer on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:56AM (#7031163)
A little bit of both. No one can deny the fact that Carnegie created the Steel Emmpire, etc. etc. that provided a baseline for American Manufacturing through the middle of the 1900s. Furthermore, many of these "Barons" became philanthropists and gave away huge portions of their fortune.

However, they also had no morals with regards to child labor, unions, worker rights, and so forth.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by darkFunction on Thursday January 09, 2014 @08:41AM (#7030372)
Proof-of-stake attempts better enforcement of decentralisation, but I think the various implementations are pretty immature.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by unlimited_power on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:04AM (#7030486)
I encourage people to look at the paper Transactions as Proof-of-Stake & The End of Mining[0] defining a form of the idea. BitShares[1] (due out in Q2 2014) will implement this.

[0] https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1138.0

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BV55IrZi7g

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by masklinn on Thursday January 09, 2014 @08:54AM (#7030423)
> in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few

By default, subsystems can be put in place to diffuse power back into the realm (or at least attempt to)

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by notdrunkatall on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:47AM (#7030710)
...except you're wrong. Bitcoin participants have developed a solution to the 51% problem, without any regulation, without any government stepping in and telling anyone to do anything.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate

Your post is a poorly argued attempt to inject politics into a technical discussion. It reads like the top comment at /r/politics, not HN.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by pron on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:56AM (#7030758)
The invention of a new currency is a highly political act; claiming it isn't is a political statement in itself. The discussion of any disruptive technology should quickly focus on politics and ethics, or risk being abused. You can't both claim to invent technology that seriously affects society, and at the same time dismiss talk of politics as irrelevant. A technology can either be irrelevant or be political (if you ever wish to understand technology, I suggest you read some of the many discussions of the politics of the washing machine; or the fork).

What I find most fascinating about some of the less ideological BTC discussions is the belief that a neutral technology (a cryptographic algorithm) can replace social contracts. I'm not claiming it necessarily can't, I'm just saying that this belief shows not only disdain for government, but an Aspergerish rejection of social structures. It's like saying, I don't want to put people in charge because I don't trust them, and I don't want even to talk to others in order to resolve disagreement; instead, I choose to take all decision-making agency out the hands of humans and place it in the hands of an algorithm that can provably never be swayed, because that is the only thing I can trust.

Regardless, there is nothing technical about a story of a small group attaining concentrated power over a decentralized currency.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by dwild on Thursday January 09, 2014 @02:43PM (#7032670)
You are wrong, I totally trust the government, I'm one of the few that still trust the NSA (and I'm not even a US citizen).

It's not a question of trust, it's a question of choice. With a simple and universal way to transfer money, we no longer have to care about the currency we use, if we can easily do an international transfer with our bank, if our Paypal account is still fine, etc...

The only politic is how governments will be able to tax Bitcoin transaction and I believe it's a big issue but I believe we will be able to fix that when it will become a problem.

I don't really understands what's wrong with: "It's like saying, I don't want to put people in charge because I don't trust them, and I don't want even to talk to others in order to resolve disagreement; instead, I choose to take all decision-making agency out the hands of humans and place it in the hands of an algorithm that can provably never be swayed, because that is the only thing I can trust."

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by pron on Thursday January 09, 2014 @05:43PM (#7033808)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it certainly says a lot about our society, or at least about how some people view it or think it should govern itself. I find it interesting.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by VMG on Thursday January 09, 2014 @01:32PM (#7032210)
> Regardless, there is nothing technical about a story of a small group attaining concentrated power over a decentralized currency.

It is completely technical. The incentives and disincentives to centralization are encoded in the protocol.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by pron on Thursday January 09, 2014 @02:23PM (#7032557)
> The incentives and disincentives to centralization are encoded in the protocol.

I am not sure I catch your meaning (about incentives being encoded etc.), but suppose they are. Isn't that a very political statement to design a system that entrusts "the last word" with an abstract algorithm rather than humans? Why is it that way?

And again, whenever engineers build something that they want people to use to change the world, they can no longer hide behind "technical". This isn't a discussion about using one hash function over another. It's a discussion about how quickly concentrated power arose in what was meant to be a system free of concentrated power.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by VMG on Thursday January 09, 2014 @03:44PM (#7033089)
It is both very technical and very political.

Encryption itself is a highly political technology - the right for two parties to communicate securely and covertly is controversial in many parts of the world, even today.

The economics of centralization are a dependent on the technical choices of the protocol -- PPCoin and scrypt-based crypto-currencies are specifically designed to avoid the scenario that is happening right now, by not relying solely on sha256^2 hashing power. Of course they are not perfect and have their own issues.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by scotty79 on Thursday January 09, 2014 @04:55PM (#7033557)
Politics is about taking things from people without actually shooting at them. I think your definition of politics so broad that in encompasses apolitical things.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by pron on Thursday January 09, 2014 @05:41PM (#7033797)
Politics (New Oxford American Dictionary): "the assumptions or principles relating to or inherent in a sphere, theory, or thing, esp. when concerned with power and status in a society".

So politics is everything concerning the managing of power in a society.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by SilasX on Thursday January 09, 2014 @02:29PM (#7032582)
"People often re-invent cigarettes as a currency in prison." <-- oops, political statement
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by celticninja on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:23AM (#7030925)
Bitcoin is more of a technology than a currency, as such it does not have to have been a political act to create it.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by mattzito on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:45AM (#7031078)
That's an interesting variant on, "The personal is political" - "The technical isn't political".

Some technologies are by their nature effectively neutral - the knife can be used to cut food, shave your face, kill your enemy.

In a more recent example, the microprocessor is a neutral technology.

But many technologies are inherently political - the Pill, for example, or ICBMs.

I would argue that Bitcoin may be more of a technology than a currency, but it is an inherently political technology, designed as it is to provide an abstract, somewhat anonymized general ledger technology.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by monochr on Thursday January 09, 2014 @12:28PM (#7031761)
Every technology is political. The only time it stops being political in an overt sense is when it no longer provides an advantage over other technologies which can do its job.

Taking the knife. It's invention was somewhere around the dawn of time for our species so the distinction between political and evolutionary event is blurry. But it's impossible to deny that it empowered the group of our ancestors who could build knifes, their advantage was so overwhelming over those who couldn't that today there isn't any human who isn't a tool user of some sort.

The micro-chip is very much more recent and still clearly political. The societies which can produce them control those who can't utterly. The NSA spying is only the latest in a long string of such events, the use of microchips to cripple weapons used against their creators is another. This technology favors very complex societies that can spend billions of dollars on building fabs, designing chips, training engineers etc.

Now for a thought experiment why a complex society like ours isn't predestined to be the state of humanity. Imagine that tomorrow some scientist somewhere finds out you can create a small stable anti-matter bomb by shaking a tomato on a stick at the sky during a storm. All of the advantages of all weapons since the bronze age are annihilated in a second. Large cities just mean a whole society can be destroyed quicker. Everyone from Amazonian Indians to San Fransisco's tech elite have exactly the same destructive ability, to a very good approximation. In a world like that you'd very quickly end up with a population that lives no closer to each other than the maximum blast radius of said tomato. The majority of technology will more than likely disappear since it gives no immediate advantage to those who posses it and population would plummet since one person can now take on a whole army.

For a further exploration of the impact of technology on the politics of a society see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_%28short_sto...

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by dragontamer on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:46AM (#7031092)
Robert Moses's Bridges are a technology as well.

But his bridges were a political tool to segregate New York City. Since his bridges and tunnels were shorter than certain busses, he made it impossible for African Americans to commute to certain areas of NYC in the early 20th Century.

Politicians can use anything they want as a weapon for their viewpoints.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by Torgo on Thursday January 09, 2014 @12:59PM (#7031995)
You have made the fallacy of presuming that technology is neutral.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by monochr on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:02AM (#7030786)
Correct me if I'm wrong but this only solves the problem if the miners aren't purposefully coordinating the take over of the system. It is merely that a pool of otherwise benign miners can't be used by the pool operator to rewrite the transaction history.

This doesn't stop an organized attack of someone who has rented lets say half of amazon's cloud infrastructure for a 10 minute attack to take over the transaction history. Something that becomes more and more profitable with the reduction of bitcoin income from mining and increase of the total number and price of bitcoins.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by theboywho on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:11AM (#7030522)
> but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few.

Actually in this particular case, it's not in the hands of the few, it's in the hands of the majority.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by masklinn on Thursday January 09, 2014 @09:12AM (#7030530)
No, it's in the hand of the pool operator not in the hand of the pool's miners.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by theboywho on Thursday January 09, 2014 @11:05AM (#7031212)
The scenario of a pool having 51% of the network power has always been known, and it actually already happened with other pools and the result is just people leaving as soon as it's getting closer to 45%.

As of writing, Ghash.io (which is operated by cex.io) is already down from 45% to 38%.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by waterlesscloud on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:16AM (#7030874)
Watch how fast the miners leave the operator if they disagree with his actions.

It's the hands of the miners.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by masklinn on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:17AM (#7030886)
> Watch how fast the miners leave the operator if they disagree with his actions.

1. They'd have to be aware of the actions of an anonymous pool owner

2. The amount of damage the pool owner can do before people even have the time to start leaving is staggering

> It's the hands of the miners.

You're in denial.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by waterlesscloud on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:27AM (#7030952)
The fact remains that the "power" of the pool operator depends on the miners, who can change pools in a matter of minutes.

The instant it's known they're abusing their power, it starts to vanish. It's not a long, drawn-out process.

It literally starts within minutes.

Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by monochr on Thursday January 09, 2014 @10:44AM (#7031070)
And control of the block chain can be taken over in minutes too. As far as I am aware the network updates itself every 10 minutes. So unless the operator never has a period of more than 10 minutes of 51% control or more the network is vulnerable.
Re:Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool by waterlesscloud on Thursday January 09, 2014 @11:07AM (#7031229)
This started out as discussion of power, in particular regarding the robber barons who "enslaved" large numbers of people.

That's not possible with the mining pools. The pool operators simply do not have that kind of power, and they will never have it.

Their power derives from people who can leave them by literally clicking a button. Not much room for power to be abused in that situation.

Yes, there could be a window of maybe 20-30 minutes when a pool operator could do something wrong. But that window would come to a swift end.

And that's not what this thread is about anyway.