Not spying on Congress would be a step up though. Congress has oversite on the NSA, not the other way around.

When the extent of the Snowden leaks became apparent, I called one of my Senators, Udall. As I was speaking to the aide on the phone, I had a sudden, horrible moment of clarity: This communication, this very phone call, this act of democracy being practiced between me and my Senator, was being monitored, cataloged and analyzed by the NSA.

I was furious.

[[And, to the NSA spy reading this: Shame on you. Fucking shame on you.]]

Even better, if you had pulled up an internet article over the NSA spying right before calling your senator, the NSA could even corroborate the two sources together to know that you were talking to your senator about the NSA program (even if all they collect is 'just metadata').

I can't even fathom how anyone can claim this can be allowed in a democracy.

Well, you do get to choose between two candidates. Both of whom admittedly support the implementation of a surveillance state.

I can abnsolutely understand that realisation, and I suppose I am not sure of my thinking regarding the whole paradigm of a powerful select being immune to the tentacles of the surveillance state - I just think it is all very, very bad. I am not clever enough or articulate enough to explain these things properly.

Perhaps one way all of us can make the point here is that when we want to speak to our elected representatives, we insist on doing so face to face, explaining that we don't want a digital 3 way with the NSA.

And you'll leave your phone home too, right?

...and not drive there.

Where would you draw the line on spying? Any american citizen is potentially a criminal threatening the republic.

The people who wrote the Constitution drew the line at "specific suspicion."

Amendment IV http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and NO WARRANTS SHALL ISSUE, BUT UPON PROBABLE CAUSE, SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION, AND PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING THE PLACE TO BE SEARCHED, AND THE PERSONS OR THINGS TO BE SEIZED.

That's where I would draw the line.

> Where would you draw the line on spying?

At none.

"That said, I don't think 'spy on everyone, except the powerful' is a step up, if anything it's worse."

Even in the midst of his panic, Winston was too much taken aback to be able to hold his tongue.

'You can turn it off!' he said.

'Yes,' said O'Brien, 'we can turn it off. We have that privilege.'

Ever notice how when you get upgraded to a first class seat on an airplane, it takes about 5 seconds to feel superior to those in the business and coach classes? I think part of that is human nature.

The only time it happened to me, I was too busy enjoying the experience to feel superior to anyone else.

To be sure, a big question would be whether they relayed anything to elected leaders.

Or, better: if the NSA collects "blackmail" evidence to keep the elected leaders/officials "in check" to avoid more legislative issues...

Hey we do this in our banana republics all the time. It would be foolish to have a super-power and then not use it to gain more power.