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Re:High Quality PHP by eropple on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:13AM (#6959890)
That's not the problem with PHP. The problem with PHP is that its design flaws cause friction that scales at least linearly and probably more like geometrically with application complexity--and it doesn't hit you until a project is of sufficient size that every change comes with more and more pain.

"It's easy to start with" is only a virtue if that doesn't come with "it turns into a tire fire a year later".

Re:High Quality PHP by ThomPete on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:54AM (#6960090)
And yet FaceBook used HipHop when that became to big a of a problem.

I have worked with people who make same claims as you resulting in us spending endless hours doing preparing for a scale that never happened.

Guess what our client felt about that invoice?

It's a pseudo problem, a theoretical problem, something that can be solved even though it might not be as elegant as the purists would like it to be. But it can be solved if it has to. Most often it doesn't.

Re:High Quality PHP by eropple on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @12:23PM (#6960197)
Yeah I'm not talking about hundreds of thousands of requests, I'm talking about three developers and fifty code files. Which I thought I made eminently clear by talking about dev scaling in my posts rather than load scaling.

That isn't a "pseudo problem".

Re:High Quality PHP by ThomPete on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @01:10PM (#6960409)
Of course it is otherwise PHP wouldn't have been so popular as it is even for more complex solutions.
Re:High Quality PHP by eropple on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @02:08PM (#6960666)
That doesn't follow. Loads of software is written with inferior and suboptimal tools for all manner of reasons. Unix was first written in PDP assembler. That doesn't mean it was a good idea, it means it was done.

Popularity is a bad, bad metric of a tool's quality.

Re:High Quality PHP by ThomPete on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @02:48PM (#6960834)
It means it was a good enough idea and apparently a strong enough tool.

Yours or mine definition of quality is of no importance to this discussion.

Re:High Quality PHP by PavlovsCat on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:44AM (#6960052)
Fair enough, but not every application has to be ready for huge growth. E.g. for a guestbook the fact it wouldn't turn into a tire fire should you decide to turn it into facebickr or googipedia is a rather small benefit, and if it comes with higher setup costs it's actually a drawback.

Some people just scratch the itches they have, right now, not the itches their expertise makes them think they should have, or the likes of Google or Facebook make them think they might have in the future.

And that is fine. Nobody is telling anyone to use PHP for their huge project, right? So why tell people they shouldn't use PHP for their mortal ones? Because at some point, down the road... can't we cross that bridge when we come to it?

Re:High Quality PHP by eropple on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @12:18PM (#6960183)
> Because at some point, down the road... can't we cross that bridge when we come to it?

No, and that's the problem. Nothing gets rewritten, it gets hacked on. PHP makes hacking on things, past a really low bar, really hard given what you get out of it. And the early benefit washes out pretty quick once you spend more than a couple days on a project. Setting up Play 2 (or Rails, or Django) is going to take me maybe five minutes longer than rolling up a project skeleton with Composer and I immediately start reaping the benefits of a sane environment. It's probably going to take me less time to be functional with any of the above than Symfony2, and I'm not inexperienced with it.

You pick your poison on day one. PHP's poison is bad for probably the 50% case, really bad for the 25% case, okay to good for the 10-25% case.

(Wordpress is not part of the last one. Neither is Drupal. I don't run either on any system I need to be able to trust. Even with FPM it's too much of a pain in the ass for the benefit I get from it.)

Re:High Quality PHP by ThomPete on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @03:22PM (#6961003)
PHP is great for 90% of the cases.

In those last 10% you are right 50% might be really bad, 25% ok and 10 good.