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Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by tolmasky on Sunday December 15, 2013 @04:22AM (#6908852)
Just a musing: perhaps its considered not as valuable an investment to program since a (the?) primary market is students, and students are probably not allowed to use phones on tests for obvious reasons (internet connectivity, texting questions to each other, overall distraction). However, TI's are state approved or whatever.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by visakanv on Sunday December 15, 2013 @05:07AM (#6908925)
It's so sad that kids with iphones aren't allowed to use phones on tests. They're being tested in an archaic context for archaic purposes. Under what circumstances are people going to be working without internet access? School has a lot of catching up to do with the real world. :(
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by withad on Sunday December 15, 2013 @05:49AM (#6908999)
For any field, there's always some basic knowledge that anyone studying or practicing it simply has to have if they're going to be at all effective. A well-written test should be checking that the students have acquired that knowledge (which can be much of the course content) and can apply it appropriately to problems.

Anyone with an internet connection can easily find out, for example, how to add together two ints in Java. But if someone took an introductory Java course and couldn't do that at the end of it, then they don't deserve to pass because they've clearly not learned what they were supposed to. If they were actually trying to program something and had to look up basics like that every time they used them, they would be so slow as to be completely useless. Or consider someone with a more time-critical job like a surgeon - they can do specific research beforehand but some level of knowledge (surgical techniques, how to use their tools, anatomy, etc.) is simply going to have to be in their head at the moment they need it or their patient could die.

Also, phones and internet access don't just provide knowledge, they're a way to communicate with everyone else in the room. If you want to see if any particular person has actually learned the material, you obviously can't allow that.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by lowboy on Sunday December 15, 2013 @05:57AM (#6909019)
> If they were actually trying to program something and had to look up basics like that every time they used them, they would be so slow as to be completely useless

Isn't that the point of timed tests? You can structure a test such that the person who needs to look up how to add two ints in Java will waste so much time that they wouldn't be able to finish the test. And if they can search for and apply this knowledge quickly enough, then maybe they've proven that they won't be slow if they have to do it in the real world.

My favourite exams were open book but still hard/long enough that if you didn't already know 95% of the material, you simply wouldn't have time to complete it.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by jbri on Sunday December 15, 2013 @06:38AM (#6909081)
On the other hand, if you allow outside communication (such as unrestricted access to the internet), you open the door for "I'll pay someone who already knows this stuff to phone in the answers for me" - which isn't generally an applicable skill in the real world.

As an aside, I hated open book exams - if you were talented and knew the material, you could typically blast through a closed-book examination in half the allotted time and get out of there, while the open-book exams were far longer and more tedious.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by tbirdz on Monday December 16, 2013 @09:00AM (#6914685)
>"I'll pay someone who already knows this stuff to phone in the answers for me" - which isn't generally an applicable skill in the real world.

I would argue that this is also a valuable skill. Knowing who to hire, assessing the person's abilities, figuring out if they can actually get the job done in the time allotted. Sure it's not at the same level that a hiring manager at a tech company in the real world would have to make, but then again the normal CS test questions aren't at that level either.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by visakanv on Sunday December 15, 2013 @10:25PM (#6912616)
Agreed with your reasoning within your framework. But I'm a little skeptical of the utility of this framework for thinking about learning. Why do we test people without communication, when most of what they're going to be doing throughout most of life is going to involve communicating with others, one way or another?

I think there IS utility in assessing people with the constraint of "you can't talk to anybody else", but I'm not comfortable with that being the dominant, primary means of assessment. It should be consistent with the likelihood that you'll actually be forced to work stuff out on your own- maybe 10, 20% at most?

Your thoughts?

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by zimbatm on Sunday December 15, 2013 @06:55AM (#6909109)
It probably depends on the subject but if they don't have that basic knowledge they're not going to be effective filling in the test either, even with Google it always takes longer.

Ideally tests should check the deeper understanding of the student and not just his memory skills. In that case Internet access is also not a problem.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by nhaehnle on Sunday December 15, 2013 @11:10AM (#6909814)
Here's the thing about calculation in particular: Yes, if your ultimate goal is to perform the calculation and nothing more, you'll be able to use a tool for the job in the real world.

However, many times the calculation is just a very small piece of a much larger puzzle. In such situations, being able to perform small computations rapidly in your head makes a qualitative difference that can really give you a competitive advantage.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by k-mcgrady on Sunday December 15, 2013 @06:45AM (#6909093)
What about the kids without iPhones? Are they handicapped because they can't afford one? Or is the school expected to provide hundreds of iPhones?
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by visakanv on Sunday December 15, 2013 @10:19PM (#6912585)
I'd suggest that they do what we do when we don't have the resources we need in the 'real world'- figure out some way to collaborate with others!
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by k-mcgrady on Monday December 16, 2013 @04:06AM (#6913609)
Collaborate during a test? That usually leads to cheating. It would also likely disadvantage the person they are working with who now has to share resources. Not to mention the fact that if this person doesn't own an iPhone they either won't know how to use it or won't be quick at using it slowing them down (bad in an exam situation). The students who do own iPhones will be faster and will be better because they are more experienced with the tools - not because they are better students.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by ygra on Monday December 16, 2013 @07:31AM (#6914329)
Not necessarily, although it might be difficult for math tests.

In school we had one larger test in German where the teacher left us alone for 4 hours. What I noticed was that we did collaborate to some extent – we shared and discussed ideas. But since we had to write an essay with our interpretation of some piece of literature there wasn't much possibility of "cheating" per se. Simply copying the text from another would not work and copying their ideas outright wouldn't either. And to get at least something of decent length there wasn't the option of fooling around for three hours either. Granted, this was in 11th grade, so we were a bit older already. It may well fail spectacularly in other environments. The teacher knew us for a few years and trusted us, and it worked out.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by hrktb on Sunday December 15, 2013 @06:23AM (#6909059)
I think it's a shame computer like devices (iphone, ipad, what you want) are not allowed. Learning to use them efficiently in a time constrained context would be a really valuable skill.

Internet access is a lot more complex though, you'd have to filter what they can access and monitor everything every student is accessing, and that doesn't seem worth it for most tests. Image a scenario where the students just throws any question on a random looking site and some hired expert on the other side writes appropriate answers on the fly. Your test won't have any meaning anymore.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by visakanv on Sunday December 15, 2013 @10:21PM (#6912602)
In which case I think the flaw is with the test, not the student. Why does a kid need to memorize something that he can get on-the-fly expert answers from? Why memorize something you can look up? =\
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by hrktb on Monday December 16, 2013 @01:29AM (#6913221)
The memorizing part is where computer could be allowed. You'll still have to remember how to get the information back though.

Now test are flawed by definition, you'll always have to create some artifical restriction to control what aspect you are assessing. Idealy you never test someone by putting him/her in a room with a pncil and paper, you'd assess how good the students cleared real tasks in realistic conditions.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by eurleif on Sunday December 15, 2013 @05:14AM (#6908935)
Except that standardized tests are reused, which is another difference from real life problems. In real life, you're not always solving a problem that numerous other people have already solved, and posted solutions to.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by astrobe_ on Sunday December 15, 2013 @02:42PM (#6910534)
In my experience, if you are really prepared for an exam, you know the formulas by heart anyway. I myself passed tests designed in a way that calculators could be disallowed. Some of them even had a reminder section with all the needed formulas. But unprepared students still failed them, because they were simply not used to use them and they therefore ran out of time. This translates in the real world: knowing things by heart and their mechanic is the difference between the guy that spends one hour on a problem ans the guy who spends 10 minutes on it.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by podperson on Sunday December 15, 2013 @09:02AM (#6909394)
When I was in college in the 80s there was an explosion of creativity in the calculator market (kind of like the TV and camera markets today -- they're all going broke and trying to come up with new killer products). One of the things that became very popular was calculators with 32kB or 64kB of RAM, a QWERTY keyboard, that ran BASIC.

Anyway, I was pure math major and we could bring pretty much anything short of an actual desktop computer into exams -- it was pretty much useless. (Now, a few years later, and Mathematica running on a maxed out Mac would have been pretty darn useful.)

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by dblarons on Sunday December 15, 2013 @02:56PM (#6910587)
We were actually allowed to use Mathematica on our Linear Algebra exams this semester. I think it made the tests a lot more effective because you didn't have to go through the algebraic trouble of finding eigenvalues and eigenvectors, so the professor could focus more of the testing time on applications of those values.

Having a computer in class opens the door for cheating, but in smaller classes it would be easy to tell if a student were browsing the Internet rather than finding a determinant.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by gaius on Sunday December 15, 2013 @11:20AM (#6909842)
Just... Wow. I suppose essays are the same, cut and paste from Wikipaedia?
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by fophillips on Sunday December 15, 2013 @04:33AM (#6908864)
Never been allowed to use a TI for exams in the UK. I've only ever been allowed to use a Casio.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by cmelbye on Sunday December 15, 2013 @04:47AM (#6908887)
It's incredibly common for TI calculators to be allowed on exams in the United States. Several standardized tests specifically allow only TI calculators, along with a few others. I think GP's comment makes a lot of sense. Most students just aren't going to put the effort into learning how to use another graphing calculator program if they can't even use it in class.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by asselinpaul on Sunday December 15, 2013 @05:31AM (#6908960)
I am currently in Year 13 in London. You are definitely allowed TI in the mathematics exams (A-Levels). TI-89 is one of the only that is banned because of its CAS.

Friends in the French system are allowed the TI 89 though.

Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by x0054 on Sunday December 15, 2013 @02:10PM (#6910406)
Just an hint, you can swap the guts of a TI-89 into the body of a TI-83. Don't ask me how I know :)
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by burriko on Sunday December 15, 2013 @05:53AM (#6909008)
Yep, I did Maths A-level in the UK back in the 90s, and a TI graphing calculator was basically a requirement for the exams.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by fophillips on Sunday December 15, 2013 @08:13AM (#6909265)
Interesting, I wasn't allowed to use one in A-Levels or university exams.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by glomph on Sunday December 15, 2013 @08:53PM (#6912224)
I think it depends on the modules/exam boards.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by neil_s on Sunday December 15, 2013 @09:08AM (#6909415)
Yeah, I used a Casio (non-programmable, but does integrations) for my (British) IGCSEs, a TI for the (International/Swiss) IB, and am back to using 'university approved' Casios at Cambridge.
Re:Tydlig – Calculator Reimagined for iPad and iPhone by mbq on Sunday December 15, 2013 @09:06AM (#6909408)
Casio also has some powerful calculators, including my beloved Algebra fx2+ and the ClassPad line which slowly converges to a kind of specialised tablet.