It's legal for two people to exchange sex for money.
But then there are some added technicalities: two or more women cannot share a property to use for sex work (because that becomes a brothel); people cannot control sex workers (pimping is illegal); it's illegal to pay a trafficked worker for sex; etc etc.
These have been added over the years, and so we have a confusing situation. People don't really know what is or isn't legal.
With this kind of stuff law should be clear because it's mostly about telling society what is acceptable. That guides people into making less unacceptable choices. (EG: Curb crawling: "Pay women to have sex is okay; but don't approach women on the street in your car and ask if they're prostitutes". That law should be about guiding people to use advertised prostitutes, but it's used to clamp down on all prostitution.)
The politicians see the problems and try to erase them instead of thinking about the causes.
The problem isn't people having sex for money or people giving money for sex. The problem are those who force other ones to do their bidding.
How is it nicer? Do you think it's ok for the State to decide what two consenting adults can do with their own bodies?
Just like my right to walk the street without being shot outweighs anyone elses right to carry a gun there.
> Just like my right to walk the street without being shot outweighs anyone elses right to carry a gun there.
I disagree with that too, people should be free to own guns, not just the government. Using guns against people for anything but self-defense should be and is illegal though. It's fascinating how much people can trust their government to the point of giving them the right of what they should do with their own bodies, sexuality and more. I'm from Europe though, so I'm used to that.
So assume we are left with a choice of two laws: completely legal or completely illegal.
This law will thus have one of two drawbacks: It will allow forcing people to sell sex without consent or it will make it illegal for consenting adults to do so. There is no more or less freedoms here, it's just different freedoms for different groups.
Thinking prohibiting prostitution will make sex trafficking disappear is delusional and I'm surprised to read such thing on HN. What's next? The war on drug is working? So what should we do? Remove people freedom to engage in prostitution even though sex trafficking will still exist or respect people's freedom and keep prostitution illegal? Same thing with drugs really.
And you are surprised to hear this on HN why? Is this a libertarian haven of some kind?
Seriously? You buy into this kind of rhetoric? A law against buying something is a law against selling it too. That's just common sense.
The visible prostitution as you say, but it's just gone underground. Rape has also gone up. Even then, if it went away, this would mean it'd ruin perfectly fine and peaceful business between consenting adults... while granting the state the power to decide what you can or can't do with your body. How is that a victory. I wonder.
> In fact it seems to have worked so well that a similar law is proposed in France.
yeah, France is all over prohibition too and nany state. No surprise here.
> And you are surprised to hear this on HN why? Is this a libertarian haven of some kind?
As the article says, it's not a libertarian stance as in Germany green lefties support legal prostitution. It's a matter of freedom and not letting the state decide what you can do with your very own body. If you're fine with the state telling you what you can or can't do to your own body, good for you. But don't force it on others. That's just as bad as religious people forcing their opinion on others by law (prop 8, no Jews/atheists/women allowed in office etc).
So: The premise of this öaw in Sweden is, basically, that there exists almost zero (or at least little enough to ignore) "fine and peaceful business between consenting adults", so that is a non-issue. I think it is due to several factors
1) only street prostitution is extensively investigated, and the street prostitution is basically trafficking victims, drug users and so on. 2) There is little or no "German" sex industry, i.e. no brothels or other "well organized" industry. 3) Few argue that it is an important human freedom to buy or sell sex, and very few would have a problem with the State having a say in it.
I don't know if there has been much research done on whether the prostitution has moved under ground, one can't simply assert it, and it is very hard to investigate (and to interpret the numbers! internet prostitution is way up between 1990 and 2010 because internet)
Btw. I don't think there is any research establishing the connection between increased levels of rape with stricter laws or reduced levels of prostitution?
If one accepts that problem as real, then one could also say that while there may be both consenting buyers and sellers out there, there are no buyers that can claim they are actually dealing with a consenting seller.
The argument is powerful because it dismisses the whole "consenting adults" idea by stating that there exists no pair of consenting adults where the buyer can actually know whether the seller is consenting.
>> But whereas progressive Swedes view their state as able to set positive goals, Germans (the Greens, especially) mistrust the state on questions of personal morality as a hypocritical and authoritarian threat to self-expression. Only this can explain why Swedes continue overwhelmingly to support their policy, and Germans theirs.
Sweden is consensus driven. Only one opinion is allowed at a time in many subjects. No media(/political party) is arguing the German solution in Sweden, it would just be impossible.
Me? I have an unusual attitude in Sweden. I ask: What works best? Frankly, I don't know. The Swedish way sounds nicer, but... does it really work?
(I don't really trust Swedish research on this, a large part of that will come with an agenda.)
Some other Swede will comment and claim I'm totally misrepresenting everything about just one opinion at a time.
Then I will point out e.g. that in Sweden housing just isn't being built, because it would lose votes (and probably lobbying from the big building companies that like the present situation). This at the same time as the population is increasing quickly. This is insane -- but the media isn't screaming at the politicians anyway. Another thing not discussed [immigration].
(There, I saved HN from a few more stupid comments.)
What I would really want to see is trafficking statistics for Sweden and Germany. This is a modern slave trade that destroy people's lives by torturing them for money. Worse than heroin.
Edit: "k__", read the article. It isn't outlawed to sell sex in .se, it is outlawed to buy it. That is a difference compared to drugs. The effects of this is uncertain.