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Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @10:43PM (#6624793)
Given that the entire point of the Federal Reserve is to promote inflation it's probably good that they think it's a good idea-otherwise why do they think that they exist?

The whole problem is that inflation is theft. You are basically having your property taken out from under you without realizing it. It's historically been very popular as a means of taxing the public without them realizing that's what you're doing.

This probably not the space to get into all this but reading "The Creature From Jekyll Island" is a good start. That the major players in the banking industry got together in secret to write the Federal Reserve Act suggests who the system really benefits.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by nhebb on Sunday October 27, 2013 @10:53PM (#6624833)
> Given that the entire point of the Federal Reserve is to promote inflation

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but the Fed has three mandates [1], one of which is to stabilize prices:

"maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates."

[1] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/225a

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jellicle on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:02PM (#6624863)
And even a minimal knowledge of history would suggest that the Federal Reserve works very hard to minimize inflation, even at the expense of high unemployment.

Poster's statement is along the lines of "Given that the entire point of firefighters is to promote fires".

It's nonsense.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:06PM (#6624873)
So much to learn, you still have. A most basic study of the Federal Reserve would lead you to the exact opposite conclusion. They try to keep interest rates as loan as possible until price inflation gets out of control. I spend a lot of time caring about this issue and all the hype about what the Federal Reserve cares about is just that-hype. They want to inflate the monetary supply all day every day and that's why they buy debt every month as part of QE-infinity. That it hasn't worked does not mean that they do not desire inflation but rather that they have no clue as to what they're doing.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by tokenizer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:22PM (#6624921)
I'd recommend Peter Schiff or Max Kaiser for an interesting look into the Fed's QE policy minus Mainstream Media hype/

The problem with the FED, and every Keynesian economist is that they think the US will indefinitely be the world currency reserve, and that 5,000 years of gold based monetary policy is less stable than the post war economics that have given us rising inequality, lowering employment, indefinite QE, China calling for a de-Americanized world, and an interest rate ceiling of 1% (look it up, Bernanke said it!) that was the bottom rate of Greenspan.

I just love when current economists tell me I'm naive, and that government debt isn't the same a debt debt... Or that there isn't a borrowing limit. The limit, is when other governments stop buying your currency. See China-Australia trading deal, China's ease on buying bonds, and look up an interesting theory on how Japan will soon stop buying US bonds, due to it's self-inflicted inflationary policy, which will force it do invest in it's own money supply soon.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by seoguru on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:40AM (#6625378)
Peter Schiff has been calling for hyper inflation and dollar collapse any day now for at least the last 5 years.

Check out this article on mobilization and money: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/08/mobilization-and-... no other governments buying our bonds were needed. Nor are they needed now.

As for replacing the US dollar with something else as world currency reserve, Mike Norman gives his views: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fTV4bGO0w

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by mistermann on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:40PM (#6624981)
Recent history would seem to indicate the US can somehow simply buy their own debt. It seems impossible to me but its been working so far.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by tokenizer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:52PM (#6625018)
You're right, however things can take a long time to run out of steam. Also, it's very interesting how much of economics relies on everyone believing in the system.

I'd recommend checking this video out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH9YPtk5VB4. This is what many people think. While some can definitely brush it off, many aren't.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jayfuerstenberg on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:15AM (#6625105)
Well the US is exporting its debt (counterintuitive as that sounds) overseas by buying goods made abroad.

If I recall correctly 40% of US currency is actually outside the country.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by nhaehnle on Monday October 28, 2013 @05:33AM (#6625968)
Low interest rates is exactly what you want in a normal, non-inflationary environment. It encourages lending for investment into projects that allows a rise in economic activity.

The only time you don't want low interest rates is when an excessive amount of loans fuels demand-pull inflation. (Though, interestingly, high interest rates can also fuel inflation via wealth effects. Overall, I tend to think interest rates are the wrong lever, and fiscal policy should be used at all times, but that's a whole other can of issues.)

So the behavior is describe is exactly what is reasonable.

Now, the whole QE thing is obviously pushing on a string. The zero lower bound means it's not going to help economic activity. QE is like going to a witch doctor because all the people who could really help - in this case, the people in control of fiscal policy - can't get their heads out of their proverbial asses.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by nazgulnarsil on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:03PM (#6624869)
Stable prices is a euphemism for inflating just enough to keep nominal prices the same even as productivity in the economy dramatically increases.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by NikolaTesla on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:52PM (#6625020)
I would say it's a euphemism for debasing just enough to keep a small minority enriched without the masses discovering it via overt price inflation and/or without the masses outside the US realizing that the value of their goods and services are being debased for the same reason.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:01PM (#6624858)
I am not. The real purpose is to inflate the monetary supply for the benefit of the large banks. On those supposed goals they have entirely failed anyway.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by yetanotherphd on Sunday October 27, 2013 @10:50PM (#6624818)
Your theory lacks predictive power.

There is huge debate about what inflation should be, and all you can say is "all the bad guys like inflation". The argument for inflation is very old, and goes back to Milton Friedman at least (who was no Keynesian).

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @10:55PM (#6624840)
Friedman was a Keynesian heretic. Instead of looking at aggregate demand he was looking at the total money supply. The basic problem is that he lacked an understand of the boom itself and focused entirely the bust's mechanics.

The argument for inflation goes back much further than Friedman. Emperor Diocletian tried it and failed. Despots throughout history have attempted it as well and failed (eventually). Inflation "works" in the short term but eventually you pay the price for it in the form of a bust.

I guess that the bad guys liking something isn't entirely sufficient but it should be fairly damning evidence.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by nazgulnarsil on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:04PM (#6624872)
The argument goes back to ancient Rome at least, with the devaluing of the denarius.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by a5seo on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:13PM (#6624895)
"You are basically having your property taken out from under you without realizing it."

If your definition of property is US fiat currency, then OK, but if you're concerned about it, you have options such as commodities, non-US currencies, and hard assets like real estate.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by lake99 on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:25PM (#6624932)
> you have options such as commodities, non-US currencies, and hard assets like real estate.

True, except that buying and selling of these is taxed. If the govt. had said, "buy and sell as much glass as you want, and you won't get taxed for its trade", I's switch to glass in a heartbeat.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by BrandonMarc on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:46PM (#6625002)
Exactly. Continuous inflation is frankly the only plan the government has to deal with the national debt. Borrow now, and in the future when your currency is weaker and less valuable, the amount borrowed will seem smaller (and in pragmatic terms will be by that point).

Of course it's destructive to the average person / taxpayer, but who cares about them? Nobody does who's in charge, that's for sure.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jowiar on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:58PM (#6625038)
I think you may have this flipped.

Inflation is, more than anything else, a tax on cash (and last time I checked, your average person didn't have a whole lot of cash on hand). Practically speaking, it helps debtors at the expense of creditors by shrinking the value of liabilities on the books.

The debt hysteria we see isn't because the elite don't care enough about inflation - it's because the costs of it fall more heavily on those who write big checks to political campaigns.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:41AM (#6625179)
Most of the elites spend their money on buying more influence. They hold debt instead of cash if they hold anything at all outside of whatever they consider to be balanced portfolio.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by GeneralMayhem on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:59PM (#6625045)
Except the average person sees the exact same benefit, ideally. It's the same platform William Jennings Bryan campaigned on way back in 1896 - expanding currency helps people who have debt.

Inflation makes the past matter less. It erodes both the wealth of the super-rich and the debt of everyone else (the farmers who had to mortgage their farms in 1896; the normal family now who has a home mortgage as the norm). That's very attractive to a lot of people, not just those managing the national debt.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:54AM (#6625223)
The basic problem is that you're playing the devil's game when it comes to debt. You might think you are getting the upper hand but the house always wins. The banks always win in this scenario because they get bailed out when they lose and they collect your interest when you "win". It becomes difficult to see how this scenario helps the common man.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by nerfhammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:20AM (#6625317)
Economic growth is the only plan to deal with the debt. If your debt financing costs you 1% of GDP/year but your GDP grows at 3%/year eventually the debt will become insignificant vs. GDP even if it is never paid off.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by snowwrestler on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:55PM (#6625027)
Inflation is only theft if you insist on storing value in cash--a financial instrument that is not designed to hold value.

A major reason to manage for low, consistent inflation is to train people to put their money into real assets.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:40AM (#6625174)
No it isn't. It is theft if you are making wages at X price with the understanding that X bought you Y goods in return. If inflation drives up the costs for Y goods so you get Y-Z goods in return then suddenly you got less than you intended for your labor. In a free market prices generally fall.

In the current market they rise at random rates across sectors. Currently we have people spending a lot of time figuring out how to pay for medical care and higher education because that's where the inflation has hit the hardest.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by girvo on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:18AM (#6625308)
> Currently we have people spending a lot of time figuring out how to pay for medical care and higher education because that's where the inflation has hit the hardest.

That's also because of the American Government's idiotic policies on those two "items", in my opinion.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by nhaehnle on Monday October 28, 2013 @05:35AM (#6625974)
> In a free market prices generally fall.

[citation needed]

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by logicchains on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:40AM (#6626196)
If you have X amount of money and Y goods/service, the ratio of money per unit of good/service is X/Y. Economic growth increases the amount of goods/services provided; tractors dig more holes than shovels, and so on. This means Y increases, and thus X/Y must decrease: the cost per unit of good/service decreases.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:38AM (#6626191)
>In a free market prices generally fall.

If we take the far-right Austrian definition of "free market" (meaning: a market in which the only functions of government are property and contract enforcement) then we have zero empirical evidence for much anything about free markets.

They've never existed.

Further, we don't even have solid evidence that hypothetical markets of that kind would be Pareto-optimal. They serve literally no function except that of ideology.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @07:05AM (#6626253)
19th century America is close enough and the results astounded the entire world.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 28, 2013 @07:52AM (#6626374)
19th century America was a rabid, rampant employer of slavery, indentured servitude, and debt peonage. And when it comes to it, 20th century America was far more impressive.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jayfuerstenberg on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:11AM (#6625088)
I agree that people should get into real assets but this sounds a lot like it's okay to beat your kids in order to train them to run faster.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by snowwrestler on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:06AM (#6625267)
Beating a kid is obviously wrong, but parenting (and coaching and managing) does involve creating incentives to encourage desired behaviors, and discourage undesirable behaviors.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by Houshalter on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:58PM (#6625042)
Where do you think cash goes if not into someone else's hand? It's like a game of hot potato constantly tossing it around to someone else so they hurt from it losing value, and not you. But in the end everyone handles it for some amount of time and gets burned the same amount.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by snowwrestler on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:13AM (#6625292)
In the U.S., the Fed creates and destroys dollars to manage the inflation rate.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by BrandonMarc on Monday October 28, 2013 @02:33AM (#6625529)
Sure, if you have some money to start with. If you're at the lower rungs of the ladder, inflation hurts you even worse.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:39AM (#6626194)
Right now, at least in the United States, if you belong to, IIRC, the bottom 75% of the population by net worth, then you are in fact a net debtor, and inflation helps you more than it hurts.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by ok_craig on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:59PM (#6625046)
Look where that got us...
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by ra on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:41PM (#6624984)
"Given that the entire point of the Federal Reserve is to promote inflation"

No, that's not what they do. Too much inflation is bad, but you need a little bit. So they seek to maintain a "healthy" amount of inflation. Typically around the world this is something like 2-3%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_targeting

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:56AM (#6625235)
Real monetary expansion is much greater than 2-3% on average. The price inflation they calculate might be 2-3% but look at college or healthcare costs. That new money finds a home somewhere and I'll tell you now that that's where it ends up these days.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by ra on Monday October 28, 2013 @02:00AM (#6625437)
I don't know about the cost of healthcare or college in the US, but those are affected by other non-inflationary factors.

Eg: political changes, supply and demand, changes to the definition of the service. i.e. Imagine the difference in what treatments are covered by healthcare today as opposed to say 25 years ago.

Don't forget the "new money" also finds a home through population increases and export of actual money (black and white market).

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by dpatru on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:44AM (#6625388)
> they seek to maintain a "healthy" amount of inflation.

An ounce of gold was $21 in 1920 and $1410 in 2010. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-historical-price-of-gold...

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by ra on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:55AM (#6625421)
Gold is a commodity that is used as a defensive investment asset, that's very different to inflation.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by juhanima on Monday October 28, 2013 @11:08AM (#6627375)
Going from $21 to $1410 in 90 years would be about 4.8% price increase aka inflation in a year.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by oakwhiz on Sunday October 27, 2013 @10:57PM (#6624844)
I never thought of inflation in that way. That's rather interesting. I guess a simple way of describing this would be to say that if you are the sole printer of money, and existing money becomes worth less over time, then you can simply continue to print more money every year in order to cement yourself as the person with the most money.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by tokenizer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:25PM (#6624933)
> existing money becomes worth less over time, then you can simply continue to print more money

Only, the act of printing more money. deepens the problem of your currency losing value. The US thinks it's impervious to inflation, but many including myself see it simply postponing the inflationary event, which will most likely coincide with a currency crisis.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by oakwhiz on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:24PM (#6624931)
To elaborate... I suppose it's more about being the person with the most wealth, and you are actually causing a net motion of wealth away from everyone's pockets and toward yourself.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by dwrtz on Sunday October 27, 2013 @10:53PM (#6624831)
Higher inflation also means that it's cheaper for the U.S. government to borrow money. In fact, higher inflation is good for anyone who borrows money (people with mortgages, student loans, etc.) because they're effectively paying back less than they borrowed.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:02PM (#6624864)
Except that the risk is asymmetric in that the bank gets bailed out if you can't pay and you don't. They loaned out the phony money and you paid it back with your labor.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:42AM (#6626201)
Which is a problem of politics, not economics. There's a broad agreement that the bank bailouts should not have happened across most of the actual political spectrum. Only the vulgar neoliberals serving the interests of the capitalist class in government actually want to print money as bailout loans to banks, and yet Austrian "economists" and their Believers pretend that's the only alternative to a deflationary gold standard and total privatization of everything ever.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @07:06AM (#6626256)
Evidence suggests that it they are correct but the part you are missing is that the whole point of the system is to bail out the large banks when their bets go bad. All in the name of the people. Whoever they ever are.
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 28, 2013 @07:52AM (#6626371)
Which system?
Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by betterunix on Monday October 28, 2013 @11:37AM (#6627561)
"The whole problem is that inflation is theft"

That is like saying that if you run a lemonade stand and someone else opens a lemonade stand next to you, they stole from you. A reduction in the value of what you own is not theft by any stretch of the word.

"It's historically been very popular as a means of taxing the public without them realizing that's what you're doing."

Ah, but inflation is not truly a tax, because it is driven by market forces and not by the law. Actual taxes reduce the rate of inflation by increasing demand for money.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by jswinghammer on Monday October 28, 2013 @11:58AM (#6627695)
No but if you reduce the quality of my lemons then yes you did do something akin to theft. That's what inflation does it. It debases the quality of money.

Inflation can't continue in a free market forever because eventually a crash occurs because inflation kicks off a boom bust cycle. Taxes have nothing to do with inflation and don't change anything on their own. They may reduce the pool of capital and may force people to the credit markets but we need more information before saying such a connection exists.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by pjc50 on Monday October 28, 2013 @11:12AM (#6627403)
No, you are _not_ having your property taken away; you are suffering a loss in its market value.

For most people, a reduction in the market value of their job or house makes more difference than the market value of their cash per se. Hence the need to keep an eye on the composition of inflation, as some parts may be going up and down more than others.

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:28AM (#6626156)
>The whole problem is that inflation is theft. You are basically having your property taken out from under you without realizing it.

Property is theft. If we're going to be ideological, I'm throwing my Marxism into the ring, too!

Re:In Fed and Out, Many Now Think Inflation Helps by dreid3 on Sunday October 27, 2013 @11:25PM (#6624934)
I found this video to be quite helpful in explaining what I believe you are describing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iFDe...