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Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by natrius on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @12:00AM (#6480529)
Google makes a good point: if it's illegal to scan emails to serve ads, doesn't that mean it's also illegal to scan emails to filter spam and prioritize email?
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by 001sky on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:18AM (#6480771)
“Google’s alleged interceptions are neither instrumental to the provision of email services, nor are they an incidental effect of providing these services. The Court therefore finds that Plaintiffs have plausibly alleged that the interceptions fall outside Google’s ordinary course of business...”

From the e-mail case, but this logic would generate the relevant distinction. Their initial legal positioning seems open to question, but only time will tell.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by greenyoda on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @12:50AM (#6480686)
There's a difference: filtering spam and prioritizing mail is something that's done for the benefit of the user. However, scanning e-mails to maximize ad revenue (they can charge the advertisers more for "relevant" ads) is Google using the contents of your e-mail for their own benefit.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by Flenser on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:05AM (#6480730)
Revenue which pays for the FREE service. If the choice was gmail with ads or no gmail I know which I'd choose.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by dingaling on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @02:52AM (#6481070)
> Revenue which pays for the FREE service

Google also scans e-mails in paid Google Apps accounts.

Edit: correction to myself. Whilst paid Google Apps accounts still show ads and Web Clips, Google now have this statement:

If you are using Google Apps (free edition), email is scanned so we can display contextually relevant advertising in some circumstances.

http://support.google.com/a/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=60762

the implication being that the paid accounts are scanned only for virus, spam and Priority Inbox processing.

Sorry, I was wrong.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by natrius on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:04AM (#6480728)
My hunch is that there's no law that makes such a distinction.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:21AM (#6480792)
Then you didn't read the judge's opinion. The wiretapping statue apparently does make such a distinction.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by Oletros on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @05:14AM (#6481435)
Judge Koh actually didn't made the distinction, user profiles are also used for spam filtering and she talked about scanning for making user profiles OR targeting ads
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by georganos on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:13AM (#6480757)
Would making money to pay for the services the users use count as being towards the benefit of the user?
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:23AM (#6480799)
According to the judge, quite possibly not because it's not instrumental in providing the service.

And also because such an interpretation would allow any business model based on exploiting the contents of the users email for profit, which is clearly not the intent of the wiretapping statute.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by MAGZine on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:41AM (#6480859)
Could Google not argue that if GMail wasn't making money (through scanning email and serving ads), then they wouldn't have a business case for gmail, and it wouldn't exist? In this sense, ads are absolutely instrumental in providing service. spam filtering and prioritzation, on the other hand, are not.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by cynwoody on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @03:00AM (#6481092)
That's true.

However, spam filtering (for sure) and prioritization (maybe) improve the user experience, thus drawing in more clients and retaining the existing base.

Spam filtering, etc., make the service more attractive, boosting the user base, which makes it possible to charge more for the opportunity to show ads to the customer base, which, of course, is how Google gets paid.

Spam filtering, etc., are no different than improving the Search Engine. Both attract more eyeballs and, thus, more ad revenue!

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by cynwoody on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @02:48AM (#6481058)
Well, there is FastMail† (which was recently spun back off of Opera). You can get a good web mail service without ads in return for a modest subscription fee.

So, as a Gmail user, you have a choice. Free, but you get to see dumpster ads because the email was about dumping some stuff off a database. Or on your credit card, because you don't want silicon being any more aware of your email bits than absolutely necessary to show them to you.

It should be up to you, the user, not Judge Koh!

†https://www.fastmail.fm/signup/personal.html

I'm sticking with Gmail.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by bsullivan01 on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @07:26AM (#6481792)
>. It should be up to you, the user, not Judge Koh!

I'm sticking with Gmail.

whatever happens with the case appeal after appeal time will tell, but a group of users sued Google for the things mentioned in the lawsuit. So the judge didn't wake up one day and pick on Gmail for no reason, there was a lawsuit by users--not all Gmail users share your opinions--and the judge had to decide on a few things.

My guess is that most users don't know what happens to their email (scan and advertising profiles based on the content of emails) because Google isn't exactly publicizing this for obvious reasons. So that will play a role and they are way of testing this via scientific surveys and polls. As long as people know and consent to this, Google will have no problem. For example, you can record a conversation as long as the other person consent to it. Who and how they consented if the did, is the $64k question.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @11:53AM (#6483174)
That's fine for you, because you understand the trade offs.

The allegation is that many users have been duped.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by cynwoody on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @02:40AM (#6481036)
Google and the Gmail user both benefit. This why there are so many Gmail users!

The Gmail user gets a free email account with a large storage allowance, an effective search engine, and a dynamite spam filter. Google gets to collect revenue in excess of cost (Google is very good at server farms) for the opportunity to show said user relevant ads.

Thus, Google's access to the content of the user's email benefits both Google and the user!

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @11:51AM (#6483164)
Illegal activity doesn't magically become legal just because the proceeds are used to give something away for free.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by res0nat0r on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @02:10AM (#6480947)
It is greatly beneficial to me. It keeps gmail free.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @11:56AM (#6483192)
No it doesn't. Free email existed long before Google started reading people's email.

The email scanning just makes extra profits for google and their advertisers at the expense of people's privacy.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by res0nat0r on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @02:38PM (#6484344)
15GB of free email service to 400+ million people costs a little bit of money to keep running. I'm going to go with the premise that advertising helps fund the cost of keeping this service up and running.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @05:34PM (#6485551)
That isn't in dispute. The problem isn't advertising. It is reading people's email.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by res0nat0r on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @06:15PM (#6485785)
Honestly I don't see much merit in this suit and suspect nothing will come of it. No human is "reading" your email in so much as an SMTP server "reads" it to know where to route your email next.

Automated scanning is inherent in allowing gmail to be free. You submit to this when singing up for the service. 3rd party users emailing a plaintext email across the internet also have no expectation of privacy, just like mailing a postcard to someone across the world.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @12:58AM (#6480711)
One is to provide a feature for the end user's benefit. The other is taking the user's private communication and using it to make money for Google.

If this business model is allowed, imagine all the other kinds of profile that communications providers would be able to sell about you based on the contents of your email.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by magic_haze on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:10AM (#6480746)
The _only_ reason they provide the feature is so they can make money. Why is this so complicated to understand? Google isn't a charity. They are not obligated to provide anyone anything (unless you pay them. And you can get rid of the ads if you have a Google apps subscription AFAIK.) Do not equate government with a company: their aims are completely different.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @11:37AM (#6483060)
The _only_ reason muggers take wallets at gunpoint is so that they can make money. Not every way of making money is desirable for society. Why is this so complicated to understand?
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by DannyBee on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:06AM (#6480731)
"One is to provide a feature for the end user. The other is taking the user's private communication and using it to make money for Google."

Assume this is true for a second. I'm not aware of any legal caselaw that has ever drawn such a distinction for the acts in play here. So I guess i don't get while people keep saying this like it should or would matter.

(I can't really opine on the case itself for obvious reasons)

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by Amadou on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:20AM (#6480784)
I'm not aware of any legal caselaw that has ever drawn such a distinction for the acts in play here. So I guess i don't get while people keep saying this like it should or would matter.

Law is always a distant second to morality. Sometimes it catches up, sometimes it doesn't. But to define what is right by a lack of previously established law is astoundingly naive, bordering on self-serving. Even when there is precedent, it doesn't necessarily define the morality of a situation, e.g. slavery, driving under the influence and women's suffrage among many thousands of examples.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @01:21AM (#6480787)
According to the judge the wiretapping statutes allow only interception that is 'instrumental' to providing the service to the end user, and she specifically stated the opinion that the exception is not intended to be broad enough to permit any arbitrary business model.

That's why people keep mentioning it.

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by DannyBee on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @02:01AM (#6480918)
Ah, thanks. Well then, she'll likely be overturned, unless her circuit feels like making another split.

Most other circuits (except two I believe) have explicitly held it to be okay for things like behavioral advertising.

See, for example, Kirch v. Embarq Management Co (10th circuit)

Given ECPA does not define "ordinary course of business" in any way, and the accompanying senate reports do not say anything about the exception being related to "for the benefit of the end user" (and instead talks entirely about the need/desires of the ISPS using the communications) , I would guess the opinion will have some trouble at the appellate level, but i guess we'll see!

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by gibwell on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @05:38PM (#6485567)
Your example case relates to browsing activity. That is very different from email.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by DannyBee on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @09:16PM (#6486531)
"That is very different from email." [Citation needed] If they are really different, you should easily be able to find a 10th circuit case where they've said so.

(Though any pair of cases where an appeals court has said they are different would be fine!)

Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by barista on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @12:34AM (#6480621)
scanning for spam does not have to extract the context. Scanning for serving ads probably does?
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by unreal37 on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @02:09AM (#6480944)
Modern email spam detectors definitely read the contents of the email and even try to extract context through certain words appearing together.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by vkou on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @12:49AM (#6480678)
Scanning to apply a filter (Machine-taught, or user-defined) definitely does.
Re:Google Accused of Wiretapping in Gmail Scans by cynwoody on Wednesday October 02, 2013 @03:23AM (#6481152)
What does it mean to extract the content?

To filter spam, you need to make enough sense of the email to identify it as spammy, according to some algorithm. To serve an ad, you need to make enough sense of the email to indicate it's about something one or more of your advertisers cares about. I can't think of a way to distinguish between the spam robot's access vs the ad robot's.