News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by ams6110 on Sunday September 01, 2013 @02:50PM (#6311556)
Thank you. People live in poverty because they don't know how to not live in poverty. We think we can buy our way out of the problem by providing housing, foodstamps, welfare (or, as proposed, scrapping all those things and providing a "basic income") but all this really does is make poverty a bit more comfortable without actually teaching those in poverty that everything they know about how to live is wrong and counterproductive and contrasting that with what works.

From the article: A Basic Income Guarantee would establish economic security as a universal right. It gives each of us the assurance that, no matter what happens, we won’t go hungry.

I don't see that it provides that guarantee at all. It doesn't mandate that the money be spent on food, housing, or anything sensible. One of the things that people in living in long-term (generational) poverty tend to do is to immediately spend any money they get on "escaping" the drudgery of their survival, e.g. on alcohol or drugs, flashy jewelry or clothing, gambling or other entertainment. It simply doesn't occur to them that money can be managed, invested, or saved. If you don't break this way of looking at life, then the money will be gone in a week or two (or less) and they'll struggle for the rest of the month until the next payday comes, and repeat the cycle again.

[Edit: Cite for my last paragraph: A Framework For Understanding Poverty, Ruby K. Payne]

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by im3w1l on Sunday September 01, 2013 @08:48PM (#6312887)
One idea I've casually pondered is if things would be better if you had a card that got a daily, or even hourly top up, instead of the status quo of a monthly top up. Bills would have to be similarly broken up into continuous payment, or some people might not be able to save up enough continuous income to pay them.

I think it at least sounds possible that it could shift people to a more even expenditure rate instead of the rich for a week, starve for three, some people lead.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by jwatte on Sunday September 01, 2013 @03:25PM (#6311710)
When you work for 7.75 an hour to support a family, you don't have enough money to "manage," much less gamble or buy jewelry. That's what it means to be working poor. I don't think you could hack that.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by greedo on Sunday September 01, 2013 @04:19PM (#6311975)
Funny how demographically, lower income citizens in the US are the backbone of almost every state lottery...
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by itsadok on Sunday September 01, 2013 @11:51PM (#6313384)
The main value one receives from buying a lottery ticket is not the statistical expected value of return on investment, but the sense of hope for a better life that you get when you but the ticket. This hope is much more valuable for someone struggling with poverty than for someone who's relatively well off. Therefore, it's perfectly rational for poor people to put a higher dollar value on a lottery ticket.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by greedo on Tuesday September 03, 2013 @03:37PM (#6323230)
In other words, it's gambling.

Most gamblers don't weigh the EV on each bet. Most are just riding the high, or hoping to hit 21...

There's a reason Vegas has all those fancy hotels, and it's not because gamblers are mastering EV.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by gnud on Sunday September 01, 2013 @06:02PM (#6312345)
Do you really think it's funny? I don't.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by larrywright on Sunday September 01, 2013 @08:18PM (#6312803)
His point wasn't that it was funny, it was that the parent was making a poor argument. And he's right. If you spend any time at all around people working low/minimum wage jobs, you'll see that many of them spend money on non-essential things: alcohol, tobacco, lottery tickets, drugs, expensive cell phones, renting stereos and TVs, etc.

My mom spent many years working with low-income families as a social worker. She told me repeatedly that many of these families just lack the basic skills of managing money. If they had $40 a week left after paying all their bills, they see nothing wrong with spending $30 of that on cigarettes and beer.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by saalweachter on Monday September 02, 2013 @01:29AM (#6313574)
Yeah, if they took that $40 / week and invested it in an index fund with a 7% after-expenses return, then after 47 years of working from age 18 through age 65, they'd have an inflation-adjusted $185,000. Combined with Social Security, that would provide them almost $20,000 / year to retire on.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by david927 on Monday September 02, 2013 @04:14AM (#6314031)
But humans aren't just satisfied with being alive. They all have hopes and dreams; they have needs, sure, but also wants. We need food but we also need some pride. It may not make sense to you, it may not seem logical, but it's human. Lottery tickets are a way to have hope: that it's going to be ok one day, better than ok. A smart phone says, I may be cleaning toilets but that's not who I am.

If you spent a year or more working a minimum wage job and living off of it, you too would start to do some of this. It's just human nature.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by neona on Monday September 02, 2013 @01:53PM (#6316234)
This, so much this.

The problem with poverty is often not that you have no excess income, but that you have so little (or should have none, but sacrifice some food to have some) that you're exhausted and can't help but want what little luxury you can afford.

It's easy to say that if someone was better disciplined they could save what little extra they have and make something of it in the long run, but it's very different to actually be in that situation and have the resolve to do that.

You can be smart enough to know you're being irresponsible and keep doing it, which just makes it that much more painful, but many aren't even smart enough to be aware of this.

This does not mean that giving people in this situation additional means would always be a total waste; often, people just want/need a certain baseline, and beyond that will use additional means to lift themselves up.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by greedo on Tuesday September 03, 2013 @03:39PM (#6323246)
Sure, these are common values. But damaging values. When people learn to defer things for future gains, they get the chance to improve their lot in life, or the lot of their children. But blowing it all on lotto tickets with a pack of cigs and a forty isn't doing anyone any good.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by greedo on Sunday September 01, 2013 @09:22PM (#6312975)
Funny as in odd or contradictory to the parent argument.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by nbouscal on Sunday September 01, 2013 @06:46PM (#6312491)
Here's an article summarizing some experimental evidence to the contrary: http://mondediplo.com/2013/05/04income
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by ihateloggingin on Monday September 02, 2013 @03:02PM (#6316570)
You talk about poor people as if they are a different kind of human being from "normal" people.

In fact, 80% of USA citizens are poor at _some_ point in their life. _Most_ people experience poverty. It's not necessarily because they "don't know how" to be anything but poor. (Often it's a result of becoming too old to work.)

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by mrab on Sunday September 01, 2013 @11:45PM (#6313369)
Agree with first paragraph a hundred percent. How can we teach those in poverty that the way they live their lives is counter productive? The politics have to get out of the damn way or it will never happen.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by saraid216 on Monday September 02, 2013 @03:03AM (#6313814)
You've got the first step down pat: become an authoritarian paternalist. Now you need the second step: understand how the world works.