> Bolsa Familia is not a basic income. It fails to fix the fundamental problem with current welfare: that it is a disincentive to reemployment.

I don't think it's disincentive to reemployment in this case, because being unemployed is not a requirement to receive the money, just being below a certain level of income per family member. Those families can both receive the benefit and work, as the program has the potential to stimulate the local economy and create business opportunities or jobs that didn't existed before.

> This has nothing to do with socialism.

Redistribution of wealth is a core concept of socialism, and that's what this program effectively achieves. The resources come from heavier taxation from the federal government on the bigger economic centers of Brazil. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Redistribution of wealth is a core concept of centralized government of all kinds, through the medium of taxation. And governments of all kinds already redistribute wealth in pursuit of social goals, whether they are socialist or not.

> I don't think it's disincentive to reemployment in this case, because being unemployed is not a requirement to receive the money, just being below a certain level of income per family member.

Well, I personally know people that refuse to work because they get the benefit, and even a minimum salary would make them ineligible.

Bolsa Familia is fixing several people into poverty.

Minimum salary won't get you out of poverty either. It means 2-4h in a packed bus, work for someone else, see your kids only when they're sleeping, have no alternative but public health and education, which usually is hellish.

I'm sorry, but for some reason I can't believe you.

The program currently pays per family, tops, R$ 306. Minimum wage is more than double. I don't see why mentally and physically capable people would refuse the opportunity of doubling their income.

Some can make more by taking informal jobs, which they don't have to report. With that, they are locked into a local maximum. And I've heard anecdotes from social workers of people who do prefer taking the "free" money to working. When you are dealing with hundreds of thousands of families, there will always be a few outliers.

Genuinely curious, at what point does taxation become socialism?

There are many ways to spend tax money that aren't directly related to welfare: military, infra-strucure for the private sector (docks, airports), industry, research...

I believe that a state that taxes and redistributes wealth is enforcing some level of common ownership, so acting under socialist principles. A state that uses tax money and reverts back into public services though is more often said to be only a welfare state.

Sounds like, in short, taxation to help the poor is socialism, while taxation to help the rich is not. Which I suppose is true, but not exactly a reason to avoid socialism.

Okay, that puts this into perspective:

>> This has nothing to do with socialism.

>Redistribution of wealth is a core concept of socialism, and that's what this program effectively achieves. The resources come from heavier taxation from the federal government on the bigger economic centers of Brazil. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

You two are arguing around two definitions of socialism, the OP is using the standard definition and you are using your own heuristic.

>I believe that a state that taxes and redistributes wealth is enforcing some level of common ownership, so acting under socialist principles.

This doesn't follow. If they were abolishing property rights, then yes you might have a point, but this is nothing new. It doesn't erode away any of the problematic power relations in a pre-socialist economy.

It's like equating the following:

>There are many ways to spend tax money that aren't directly related to welfare: military, infra-strucure for the private sector (docks, airports), industry, research...

with fascism.

It bears a resemblance but upon closer inspection is absolutely nothing of the sort.

I'm also curious as to why you don't classify the above corporate welfare as socialism as well.

> You two are arguing around two definitions of socialism, the OP is using the standard definition and you are using your own heuristic.

I'm giving my definition, as someone who knows what goes on inside this country.

The program was put in practice under a left-wing government, whose president was the head of the worker party and went to jail during the right-wing, US-supported, military dictatorship we had in Brazil from 1964 to 1986.

So even though the program looks like "just" welfare, there's a strong socialist doctrine behind it, revolving around redistribution of wealth and the maintenance of the left-wing in power. Mind you, the same party that implemented the program won all four subsequent elections for presidency.

> It bears a resemblance but upon closer inspection is absolutely nothing of the sort.

Nothing of the sort? It's pretty close a description of where the US government invests it's tax money, and there are quite a few people who classify it as a fascist government. The fact it's a military power, ran by a two-party system where both sit on the same axis of the political spectrum, with a strong nationalism sentiment and martialist culture are often given as indicators.

The moment you do something useful to society with the tax revenue.

At the point at which it's mandatory.

> A proper basic income is fucking trivial to implement. Give every member of society X amount of money per T time period.

Just like that, huh? Pray tell, where does the money come from? Magic money pixies just conjure up limitless amounts of money and sprinkle it everywhere, and the only effect that has is that now everyone has money!

> This has nothing to do with socialism. The means of production do NOT change ownership.

Oh, a Marxist.

>> This has nothing to do with socialism. The means of production do NOT change ownership.

> Oh, a Marxist.

Not necessarily a Marxist, just someone who actually knows the meaning of the word socialism. Depressingly uncommon, that.

From what I have read basic income is often suggested to be combined with a single land value tax. This means the only direct taxes are on the unimproved value of land, which is fairly easy to administer in a country like the United Kingdom, for example. That tax is then passed on to people who consume the output of the land, be that actual produce, like vegetables, or more intangible things, like crossing the land in a train.

The land value tax can be scaled to match the requirements of the basic income, plus additional government costs (e.g. defence). I suppose in a libertarian interpretation of that system the additional government costs would be minimal. Personally I would favour more social spending, but I could imagine less being necessary than under systems where basic provision is lower, or has more strings attached.

The money could come from a number if sources, like all existing welfare programs, or public pensions, which are already incredibly high, and could be substantially lowered. Or we could cut our ridiculous military budget by a tiny fraction.

Have you looked at some numbers?

Here's a start: 300 million people * $1500/month = $5.4T per year.

It seems the total US tax revenues are around $2.9T in 2013. So with these numbers, all they'd need is to.. roughly double their revenues. In other words, the US would need to forcefully confiscate almost twice as much money as they do now.

This is why statements like "A proper basic income is fucking trivial to implement. Give every member of society X amount of money per T time period" are somewhat annoying, and we haven't even gone into the consequences of raising taxes by even half.

Try using some real numbers if you're going to actually try dismissing an argument with an appeal to numbers. Are we talking about guaranteeing that every child has $1,500/mo, too? I don't think so.

Based on Census data, there are about 240 million adults ... so $4.3T, using your $1500/mo figure.

Basing this off existing tax revenues is somewhat foolhardy as that system is gamed like crazy. Forcefully confiscate? No. The US would have to alter tax code to increase revenue by closing all the loopholes used by those who exploit them to avoid taxation of their incomes and assets.

Beyond that, this would not be a simple program to implement--which, I think, is actually your point. For starters, BGI would have to adjust based on where a person lives--someone in NYC or LA has a higher basic income need than someone in the smaller, cheaper Southern and Midwestern towns. This makes a bit more difficult equation for determining exactly how much this would cost, but there's enough Census data available that we could roughly estimate it with a bit of effort. The tax system would have to be modified, making appeals to current tax revenues a rather moot point.

So, you're right that it's not a trivial proposal, and it's unfortunate the other commenter suggested such a trivial solution. However, we do just give every member of society X amount of money per T time period in the form of various tax breaks and write-offs, etc. So, the other commenter is not too far off that it can be as trivial as agreeing and deciding to just do it--and then get on with the hard work of figuring out how to implement it.

I didn't mean my numbers to be accurate. That's why I referred to them as a start.

Yes, there would be considerations such as the differences between rental prices in NYC vs Idaho, or whatever.

But more importantly, what happens if there's a hefty increase in taxes? -A lot of businesses will shut down or get the fuck out, and then the tax burden is just that much heavier on everyone who's left, and then they're even more motivated to shut down or get out. It's a feedback loop of higher taxes.

A voice of reason in the wilderness. These people (or is it all one person with multiple accounts?) disinter tired, old socialist notions that have no basis in reality. Indeed, let's just close all the tax "loopholes" and redistribute $2T to the least productive people and see what happens. What a great idea!

Excuse me, but I have to get back to the real world, now. Enjoy eating the goose, but don't complain tomorrow when you run out of golden eggs!

Yep. They have no clue. I've come to the conclusion that trying to get people to see reason is futile, but old habits die hard.

> to the least productive people

BIG goes to everyone. It replaces (among other things) programs which go to the "least productive people". So your criticism seems misplaced.

> But more importantly, what happens if there's a hefty increase in taxes?

Depends. I mean, if you do a big shift from payroll taxes (which business pay for workers independently of whether they are making a profit) to income taxes (which business pay, essentially, on profits), even if the overall level of taxation is higher, you can make it much easier to start a business and make it sustainable, causing businesses to flourish.

Also, you can tie BIG to a revenue base such that increases/decreases in the revenue base over time also lead to increases/decreases in the guarantee.

> I didn't mean my numbers to be accurate. That's why I referred to them as a start.

Typically, when discussing a start, I'd expect people to not be starting with a number that is over $1T higher than what we would actually be discussing right now. $1T is a lot of overage for a start, even considering that you apparently did not care to be accurate when trying to so definitively dismiss the attainability of a better economic platform for everyone.

> But more importantly, what happens if there's a hefty increase in taxes? -A lot of businesses will shut down or get the fuck out, and then the tax burden is just that much heavier on everyone who's left, and then they're even more motivated to shut down or get out. It's a feedback loop of higher taxes.

You're purely speculating here.

Running a business ought not make anyone some kind of special entity more valued than all the workers they depend on. There is a seriously systemic social problem in America where too many people look at businesses as something that ought not be obligated to the same expectations of social responsibility as normal citizens and the state itself.

Don't want to pay taxes? Fuck off Business Person, we don't need you. If what you're doing is really that valuable and the market wants it, someone else will find a way. And if nobody else does, we still don't fucking need you.

Establishing a fair, just, and reasonably equitable society is far more important than counting the number of businesses we have. When the system is stacked in favor of those who want to evade taxes, or threaten they will shut down or get the fuck out, and constantly caters to this bullshit, we can't improve our institutions meaningfully. Moreover, the cult of endless economic growth that so dominates our cultural narrative is working against us and reality itself. It's unsustainable. We keeping moving toward more bullshit jobs and less meaning for people, as if job titles and salaries are the only measure of human worth and the only means to happiness.

Everybody treats the economy and the complex systems that transact within it as if it's some kind of set of laws built into the universe itself, instead of something we fashion ourselves and have the ability to direct.

> Don't want to pay taxes? Fuck off Business Person, we don't need you. If what you're doing is really that valuable and the market wants it, someone else will find a way. And if nobody else does, we still don't fucking need you.

We all need goods and services. Who's going to give you food, fix your car, build your house, sell you a computer? You might make a few of these yourself (grow your own food if you live on a farm, for example), but not all of them. Eventually, it all comes back to a system where people make stuff and trade with others.

> Everybody treats the economy and the complex systems that transact within it as if it's some kind of set of laws built into the universe itself, instead of something we fashion ourselves and have the ability to direct.

A lot of these systems and designs are fashioned by human nature. We can't truly direct human nature; people in all societies are self-interested, looking to survive and improve their place in society. This is balanced with cooperation, since in some situations you're better off collaborating than being selfish.

Whichever way you re-design society, it's going to shape itself after human nature. Not even the communist master planners managed to break its basic laws, quite the opposite. For example, in Communist countries (or Romania at least), there was a black market for all kinds of stuff you couldn't find in the open (like Western magazines, literature, or rare stuff like meat).

TLDR version: I don't think you can engineer society.

Oh stop it, you Silly Marxist Goose.

Isn't $10k/yr the generally the suggested figure, maybe $1k/mo for simplicity? $10k/yr makes it $2.4T. Social security is approximately $770B, safety nets $410B. Medicare/Medicaid is around $730B. That's getting close.