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Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rayiner on Monday August 26, 2013 @09:10AM (#6276772)
The overriding trend in American cities is that whites will not live in predominantly black or hispanic neighborhoods.[1] But the reverse is generally not true. So you see much less segregation in predominantly white cities like Portland than in cities like Chicago that have an even mix of races, which have less segregation than predominantly black cities like Detroit or New Orleans.

As far as I can tell, most European cities are predominantly white, so I wouldn't expect as much segregation in those cities as you see in say Chicago or Detroit or Philadelphia. London is one of the more ethnically diverse (large) Western European cities, and is roughly 60% white. LA is the whitest large American city at 50%. New York is 45%, Chicago is 30%, etc. New Orleans is around 25% white, and Detroit is 8% white. At the other end of the scale, Portland is 75% white. If you look at the map, the ordering by level of segregation follows that pattern: Portland is the least segregated, Detroit is the most segregated, and LA, New York, Chicago, and New Orleans are between, in that order.

[1] You can argue about whether this is racism or classism. As a practical matter, in American cities the two are tightly linked. Middle class people of both races tend to move to the suburbs, and of the people that are left, whites skew wealthier and blacks and hispanics skew poorer, even more so than in the general population. E.g. The median income of a white Chicagoan in 2009 was $64k (substantially above the national average). The median income of a black Chicagoan in 2009 was $29k (substantially below the national average). http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2011/02/second-....

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rmc on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:29PM (#6278048)
As far as I can tell, most European cities are predominantly white

This is both true, and yet misleading and hence false.

Yes, by US racial/ethnic definitions the majority of european cities are majority 'white'. But we don't use the US categories (of white/black/latino/etc.) here in EU because it's not accurate. In fact EU law claims "The European Union rejects theories which attempt to determine the existence of separate human races."[1], and anti-racism law talks about "racial or ethnic origins"[1]

Let's take the UK and their main point of ethnic conflict, Belfast in Northern Ireland. Both the "nationalist/catholic" and "unionist/protestant" communities would be counted as "white" under US racial terminology, but they are 2 different ethnicies.

So yes, "most EU cities are white" by US standards, but by EU standards there's a lot of racial/ethnic mixing and conflict, including full on wars (look at what happened in Yugoslavia!)

[1] EU law on discrimination http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rowanseymour on Monday August 26, 2013 @03:31PM (#6279345)
Not sure if my homeland Northern Ireland is good example for defining ethnicity. I've rarely heard anyone talk about our "two communities" as ethnic groups, and even your own descriptions are political (Unionist/Nationalist) and religious (Protestant/Catholic). Ethnicity is not a clearly defined term and in a "post-conflict" place like Northern Ireland, I think we intentionally avoid terminology which can encourage a sense of division. It also suffers from the same deficiency as the word "race" when it comes to mixing. Even if we can say that this community predominantly came from English and Scottish settlers and this community predominantly came from "native" Irish, how many people today can say that they only have ancestors from one of those two?
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rmc on Monday August 26, 2013 @04:17PM (#6279603)
Ethnicity is not a clearly defined term

Oh I know. There is lots of disagreements about if subset of humanity X or Y counts as a different ethnicity (Irish Travellers are view as a separate ethnicity in UK, but not Ireland for example). However the existance of disagreements, nor a clear definition doesn't mean the word is useless.

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rayiner on Monday August 26, 2013 @12:47PM (#6278162)
That's certainly a fair point, but would you say that there are axes of diversity in European cities that have properties similar to racial delineations in the U.S.? That is to say, political tensions arising from economic disparity as well as strong cohesion within distinct social groups?

I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of European social conflict, but I don't imagine there is a lot of catholic versus protestant tension in say London, nor do I imagine there are persistent and massive socioeconomic disparities between the two groups in London (or at least nothing comparable to the more than factor of 2x disparity between blacks and whites I cited for Chicago).

And running with your example, what do you imagine would have been the political situation in the U.K. if say London had consisted of 60-70% Irish nationalist Catholics in 1985?

Or is there still discrimination within categories of whites? Are Londoners whose families originally hail from say Poland still dramatically disadvantaged compared to ones who can trace their origins in England for centuries? And if so, what would the politics be in the U.K. if London consisted of 60-70% of these hypothetical disadvantaged poles?

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rmc on Monday August 26, 2013 @04:21PM (#6279629)
And running with your example, what do you imagine would have been the political situation in the U.K. if say London had consisted of 60-70% Irish nationalist Catholics in 1985?

Well Ireland was 95% Catholic, and had a terrorist guerilla war and seceeded from the UK in 1922. This often happens in Europe when there are ethnic disagrements (latest example: Kosovo). Or there's policial independence movements (e.g. Catalonia, Scotland).

Or is there still discrimination within categories of whites?

With regard to Polish people, there has been a lot of Polish migration to UK in the last few years since Poland fully joined the EU. So there'd be loads of "white Polish" families who moved there in the last 10 years. Not exactly comparable. There would be racism against ethnic Polish people. The UK does have a large Indian and Pakistani population, some third generation by now. And yes there can be racism against them. I suppose a pedant would claim the US racial definitions are still relevant by claiming things are different, but social and legally racism against Polish people, and Pakistani people would be seen as quite similar, not different types of discrimination. "They took our jobs" would a common type of discrimination in the UK against "white" migrants from Eastern & Central Europe. Racism between, what in the USA would be considered, "whites" does happen in Europe.

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rayiner on Monday August 26, 2013 @04:57PM (#6279874)
What's the magnitude of the discrimination within categories of whites? Do white British make twice as much as white ethnic Polish? Do white British barely ever associate with white ethnic Polish in private gatherings? Do white British cross the street when passing by a white ethnic Polish at night? Are their schools that are 90% white polish?

Do the info pages for individual schools in London prominently display "country of origin" information, so white British can ensure they don't accidentally send their kids to a school that's 90% white ethnic Polish? http://www.cps.edu/Schools/Pages/school.aspx?SchoolId=609951.

Or are Poles in London seen like say Jews in the U.S.? Sometimes the butt of a mean joke or nasty comment, but otherwise not situated fundamentally different from the majority group?

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rmc on Monday August 26, 2013 @05:07PM (#6279917)
Eek, that seems pretty racist. Though in Northern Ireland they do separate the schools (they've been trying to stop that), and there is quotas for public jobs (though mostly because they had a long history of having a quota of 0 for one side).

Remember, Europe and the USA are different and have had different histories. Europe has had a slightly different history of racial discrimination than USA. The have literally been wars.

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by newnewnew on Monday August 26, 2013 @05:59PM (#6280187)
In London, the Lee Rigby murder and the flash mob violence has brought tensions between English and immigrants to the headlines.
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by tsotha on Monday August 26, 2013 @03:55PM (#6279478)
>In fact EU law claims "The European Union rejects theories which attempt to determine the existence of separate human races."[1], and anti-racism law talks about "racial or ethnic origins"[1]

Very clever. "We'll deal with the subject by pretending it doesn't exist!"

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rmc on Monday August 26, 2013 @04:09PM (#6279559)
Oh they don't pretend it doesn't exist. The link is, effectively an EU anti-racism law. It's just that it's not based on biological race, but on "racial or ethnic origin".
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by jordanb on Monday August 26, 2013 @09:31PM (#6280930)
Official racial identification in America is based on self-identification. The data from these maps came from people filling out a form saying what race they are. On modern census forms, people are allowed to choose multiple races, and the same holds for ethnic origin.

Some of the comments here seem to suggest that these maps come from measuring craniums and all that.

Fortunately that's one horror that didn't survive the boat trip across the ocean.

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rowanseymour on Tuesday August 27, 2013 @02:10AM (#6281759)
Fortunately that's one horror that didn't survive the boat trip across the ocean.

Actaully, Phrenology enjoyed brief but widespread popularity in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology#United_States

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by eru on Tuesday August 27, 2013 @03:35AM (#6282015)
Oh, it did survice the boat trip (see e.g. paper bag parties). It only died overseas, not during transit, if at all.
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rmc on Tuesday August 27, 2013 @07:44AM (#6282846)
Self-identification is mostly the way it's done in Europe as well.
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by tsotha on Monday August 26, 2013 @05:23PM (#6280013)
I can see ethnic origin not being biological, but how can racial origin and biological race be different things?
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rmc on Tuesday August 27, 2013 @07:47AM (#6282858)
It's "(racial or ethnic) origin", not "(racial origin) or (ethnic origin)".
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by tsotha on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:35PM (#6307998)
You realize both phrases evaluate in exactly the same way?
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by newnewnew on Monday August 26, 2013 @04:27PM (#6279689)
> You can argue about whether this is racism or classism.

Or it could just be avoiding high-crime areas. Given the vastly different propensities of people of various races to commit crime, avoiding crime tends to make you look racist[1]

[1] http://www.ronunz.org/2013/07/20/race-and-crime-in-america/

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by sangnoir on Tuesday August 27, 2013 @06:55AM (#6282657)
You can still argue your assertion further: you seem to be declaring that race (and not class) is the driver for crime. Race and class (in America) are strongly linked that when a person declares one thing (and not the other) as the cause, it tells you a lot about the person.
Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by newnewnew on Tuesday August 27, 2013 @02:53PM (#6285381)
It looks to me like race matters more than class. Poor whites and hispanics don't commit nearly as much crime as black citizens, even though they are numerically greater. 6% of the US population (black males) commits 53% of the murder, more than the other 94% of the population combined.

There is something uniquely wrong in the black American community. Whites who notice it are called "racist". Blacks who notice it (like Bill Cosby) are called race-traitors or Uncle Toms. So nobody much cares about addressing anti-social behavior, because it simply cannot be discussed.

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by michaelt on Monday August 26, 2013 @02:45PM (#6279032)
Here's a map of the UK displaying areas' most popular surnames: http://www.uncertaintyofidentity.com/GB_Names/Mapping.aspx

It's Smith and Jones almost everywhere, but in cities like London and Birmingham there are distinct groupings of Patel, Kaur, Begum etc.

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by doktrin on Monday August 26, 2013 @09:13AM (#6276785)
> As far as I can tell, most European cities are predominantly white

I think your impression is flawed. Many European cities are racially diverse and quite a few are segregated. Paris comes to mind as a particularly good example of both.

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by rayiner on Monday August 26, 2013 @09:28AM (#6276874)
A city can be racially diverse and also predominantly white. London, for example, is a metropolitan, racially diverse city that is nonetheless 60% white.

I'm not denying that there are European cities that are racially diverse. But every single U.S. city over a million people, and most of the cities between 500,000 and 1 million, are majority-minority, usually by a large margin (say 2:1). I think that's a phenomenon that's alien to major European cities.

As an aside, I think Europeans unfairly jump to calling Americans racist, when they don't have to deal with the political dynamics of majority-minority cities. It's one thing for a city to be diverse. It's another thing when the dominant ethnic group of a country ends up being a minority in the city, in the process losing political control, etc. Add to that the layer of economic conflict that arises from tax revenues flowing from the richer majority to pay for municipal services for the poorer majority. That creates a wholly different political dynamic, one that is alien to Europeans.

Look at Paris. There is tremendous tension there between whites and Arabs. But the Muslim population of Paris is only 10-15% (estimated). What would the political dynamic in France be like if Paris were 60-70% Muslim and hadn't elected a non-Muslim mayor in 40 years, yet still relied on whites for most of the tax revenue? I would hazard a guess that the French would handle it a lot worse than the Americans have been doing in similar situations...

Re:Map of America's Racial Segregation by btrautsc on Monday August 26, 2013 @11:52AM (#6277812)
There is a lot of reality in this post that many people will never see/ understand - these phenomena that take place in cities across the US.

Also, the city population is only a part of the equation. Often the metro area skews significantly white (because of the suburbs) - which then stresses the balance more.