News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by sethbannon on Thursday August 01, 2013 @01:52PM (#6142076)
Our government is sending gangs of armed men to perfectly innocent citizens' doors to interrogate them, simply because the authorities don't like what the people are looking at online. Chilling. Now that PRISM and XKeyscore are being reported on in the main stream media, I hope we'll hear many more stories like this and that this will cause folks to realize that it could easily be their door next time.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by eksith on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:29PM (#6142357)
Wait a moment. Before you get carried away, we still only have her word. Also on the piece :

  In a conversation with The Atlantic Wire, FBI spokesperson Peter Donald 
  confirmed The Guardian's report that the FBI was not involved in the 
  visit itself. Asked if the FBI was involved in providing information 
  that led to the visit, Donald replied that he could not answer the 
  question at this point, as he didn't know
So at the moment, we still have hearsay. It's from the original source and I'm not calling her a liar, but I still don't know what exactly happened. Just who came to the residence beyond some scary looking guys in SUVs who said they were FBI.

Edit: Interesting that asking for evidence warrants downvotes.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by griffordson on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:42PM (#6142459)
Did you read the Guardian report?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police...

  Members of what she described as a "joint terrorism task
  force" descended on Catalano's home on Wednesday. A spokesman
  for the FBI told to the Guardian on Thursday that its
  investigators were not involved in the visit, but that "she
  was visited by Nassau County police department … They were
  working in conjunction with Suffolk County police 
  department."
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by eksith on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:55PM (#6142576)
That wasn't the linked story on this thread, but I found this bit interesting :

  A spokesman for the FBI told to the Guardian on 
  Thursday that its investigators were not involved 
  in the visit, but that "she was visited by Nassau 
  County police department … They were working in
  conjunction with Suffolk County police department.
But it was only after the story ran that she Tweeted this : https://twitter.com/inthefade/status/362707932586053633

So FBI became JTTF, which in turn became Nassau cops?

This is why we should all stop listening to the 24 hour news machine and wait a while before everything is cleared up and fully presented. This is a developing story and clinging to one or two tidbits finagled from the authorities here and there aren't going to cut it.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by jmccree on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:10PM (#6142710)
From FBI's website: "The New York Joint Terrorism Task Force brings together representatives of 49 local, state, and federal agencies to run down any and all terrorism leads, develop and investigate cases, provide support for special events, and proactively identify threats that may impact the area and the nation. We also have satellite Joint Terrorism Task Forces working out of Long Island, Westchester County, and Orange County." Source: http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/about-us/our-partnerships/partner...

It makes full sense that the FBI would get a report and share with local law enforcement (members of JTTF) to follow up. I'm still very skeptical that this all originated with google searches, but the story of "JTTF agents" checks out.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by wavefunction on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:03PM (#6142652)
What do you think "Joint" in "Joint Terrorism Task Force" stands for? It's FBI working with local Police Departments, which in this case sounds like tipping off the PD to go check her out.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by tptacek on Thursday August 01, 2013 @04:09PM (#6143132)
Again, according to a retired FBI exec with experience in terrorism work at FBI, the term "JTTF" might mean almost nothing at all.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by griffordson on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:01PM (#6142634)
Who would the JTTF be made up of?
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by ethomson on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:11PM (#6142716)
While I see where you're going with this, let's take a moment to remember that the Joint Terrorism Task Force is made up of individual law enforcement officers, not agencies. That is to say that not all members of the Whatever County Sheriff's Department are inherently part of the Joint Terrorism Task Force.

So it's certainly possible that three black SUVs worth of the local sheriff's deputies, all of whom were members of the Joint Terrorism Task Force, showed up to question her about her internet searching.

Or this fiction writer is not portraying an accurate version of the events.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by Spooky23 on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:35PM (#6142886)
Basically, it's a modern day "posse" made up of individuals from Federal law enforcement (FBI, Secret Service, ICE, Border Patrol, etc) and from local or specialized law enforcement (railroad police, etc).

The officers are basically deputized as JTTF members. It's a common model that's been around for a long time. For example, the US Marshalls have a fugitive task force for picking up suspects with arrest warrants and the DEA has something similar for drug raids.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by tptacek on Thursday August 01, 2013 @04:06PM (#6143116)
According to David Gomez, a former FBI exec who worked in domestic terrorism, "JTTF" is a catchall term used by many (perhaps all) LEOs working on terrorism in any capacity. The term apparently has no technical meaning.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by whenEnough on Thursday August 01, 2013 @04:10PM (#6143138)
ok so when can i think/share thoughts with other thinkers? is there a specific authority you are waiting for?
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:58PM (#6142604)
So apparently local police forces have access to the kind of data required to learn what people are searching for.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by Angostura on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:43PM (#6142949)
I read the report, it's still a single-source story from the person involved and their interpretation of what happened.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by griffordson on Thursday August 01, 2013 @04:44PM (#6143390)
The comment I replied to said this:

  Just *who* came to the residence beyond some scary 
  looking guys in SUVs who said they were FBI.
The Guardian report, which was referred to in the comment I replied to, answered that question with quite a bit of specificity.

That comment also had the complaint about downvotes for asking for evidence before I replied.

I agree that there is no concrete evidence that the police showed up as a direct result of them searching for specific keywords. There probably never will be. But how would she prove it? Could anyone prove it in public? Would any investigation that looked into the matter ever be declassified? Could Congress hold a hearing in open session and get answers about the incident?

Unless her husband had a recording of the conversation she claims happened here:

  "Have you ever looked up how to make a pressure cooker 
  bomb?" My husband, ever the oppositional kind, asked them 
  if they themselves weren’t curious as to how a pressure 
  cooker bomb works, if they ever looked it up. Two of them 
  admitted they did.
https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724

Or unless one of the officers involved in that conversation confirms the conversation happened as she reported, we'll never know.

It is completely reasonable to be skeptical of her interpretation of the event. But it is also reasonable to wonder about the consequences of living in a society where her interpretation is a reasonable one, even if it is unlikely. Before Snowden's leaks many people would declare her a nut for even thinking her searches could be related to the investigation. Now we have evidence that the story could happen as she presented it, even if it didn't in this case.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by tptacek on Thursday August 01, 2013 @04:10PM (#6143136)
You're correct about that.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by tryitnow on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:44PM (#6142953)
The original commenter wrote: "Our government is sending gangs of armed men to perfectly innocent citizens"

Local governments are governments too. Just because the Feds didn't show up doesn't mean this isn't highly problematic behavior. The fact remains that harmless private communication was used as an excuse to interfere in the lives of ordinary citizens. This is what is so problematic about it.

EDIT: After reading some more critical comments, I should state that I am ASSUMING what she said is true - that the agents actually asked her about Internet searches. I have to admit that she could just be making that part up.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by rossjudson on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:42PM (#6142454)
See http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police...

The Guardian says they confirmed that there was a visit, and were told that it was a local police force.

The Atlantic's headline was updated to reflect that.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by foobarbazqux on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:39PM (#6142435)
You possibly got downvoted because people assumed that the scary photograph at the top of the article was taken during this incident and not during the aftermath of the Boston marathon bombings, and that it is therefore a piece of evidence. I thought the same thing at first.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by eksith on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:44PM (#6142468)
That's just an indication of how much TAW is milking this story for all of its shock effect before the facts are fully established.

Besides, in the original article, she said the guns were holstered when they were talking to her husband and from the tone, they were cordial and shook his hand before they left. Hardly a "raid".

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by smsm42 on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:04PM (#6142668)
Six strangers with guns coming to your home and demanding to conduct a search is hardly a friendly visit. And however cordial they are, they have the right to use any violence against you - including lethal - at any moment they decide there's anything suspicious, and the experience suggests even if they are completely wrong worst thing that would happen to them is suspension with pay. As for you, anything you say to them can and will be used against you, and any factually incorrect statements, however trivial and minute the incorrect part is, that you make to them can be grounds to a felony prosecution if they so desire.

So I don't think it can be dismissed as a friendly encounter. I would certainly feel extremely discomforted by such a visit.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by dmix on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:53PM (#6142563)
The police were polite... so it's not a raid? What if he denied a voluntary search of the house? Would they politely stop investigating them as terrorists and monitoring their internet activity?
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by Zelphyr on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:11PM (#6142721)
Exactly. How it is labeled isn't the important bit here. The fact that they showed up AT ALL based on what appears to be a confluence of Internet searches is what is concerning.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by ballard on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:44PM (#6142955)
Between assisting the greater good and looking out for number one, they didn't seem to do enough of the later.

IANAL: They took a gamble by letting them in the door without a warrant. That opened themselves up to legal liability, regardless of "nothing to hide" innocence.

If they had found anything that looked suspicious, it would be a different story. They lucked out, this time.

A law school professor and a police investigator teach a class of law students why you can gain nothing by talking to the police: https://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by edmccard on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:56PM (#6142586)
>Just who came to the residence beyond some scary looking guys in SUVs who said they were FBI.

From the article, "the Suffolk and Nassau police, which The Guardian reported were the authorities that effected the raid".

As to the downvotes: you could have pointed out the discrepancy between "Feds" and "cops" (the article's title was changed to reflect that) without turns of phrase such as "we have only her word", "hearsay", "I'm not calling her a liar".

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by praptak on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:00PM (#6142626)
There is another huge step missing here - proof of causation. How do they know it was their web searches that caused the visit?
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by declan on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:12PM (#6142724)
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by md224 on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:19PM (#6142772)
So you're saying that a woman posted photos of firecrackers on Facebook on July 4th, and this may have contributed to a visit by the police? And this is supposed to be BETTER?

I agree that we need more information before jumping to conclusions, but the additional context you're providing doesn't give me much comfort.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by declan on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:29PM (#6142848)
I'm not trying to comfort you or defend the local cops who showed up. Arguably showing up over a FB post is even dumber than if they actually had snarfed Internet searches.

But local cops acting dumb is a different story entirely than LOCAL COPS WATCHING OUR GOOGLE SEARCHES.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by md224 on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:42PM (#6142941)
Alright, that's a fair point. I still think it's a bit scary/sad that we need to worry about our public Facebook posts being potentially misconstrued by local police as grounds for a visit.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by jmccree on Thursday August 01, 2013 @05:06PM (#6143534)
Far better in my book. It means what likely happened is any one of her FB friends, or since the firecrackers were public, anyone else saw the image of fireworks and possibly other comments, became concerned, and reported it to law enforcement. Even if this was found via some source of open source intelligence gathering operation that ended up in a visit, that is leagues away from private google searches leading to a visit.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by praptak on Friday August 02, 2013 @03:36AM (#6145782)
> So you're saying that a woman posted photos of firecrackers

M-66 explosives that look like firecrackers.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by ethomson on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:34PM (#6142871)
I'm glad you found this.

I don't doubt that some law enforcement officers from some agency showed up at her doorstep for some reason. And I can accept that there were - at some point - questions about bombs for some reason or another.

But I suspect that her internet searches contributed to this appearance is (at best) hysteria or (at worst) convenient mistruths.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by yk on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:35PM (#6142884)
Assuming that the visit is actually related to Internet monitoring, then the monitoring algorithm is certainly not 'everybody who searches X AND Y AND NOT Z,' but rather some calculated terrorism score. Actually I think it is entirely possible, that whoever does this has no actual idea how the score is calculated and the machine learning algorithm did just pick them because of a random similarity to the search profile.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by anaptdemise on Thursday August 01, 2013 @04:16PM (#6143171)
Ignoring your shameless self promotion, how do you know that the post you reference wasn't "reasonable suspicion" for law enforcement to gain access to the internet searches? Your assumption does not discount or disprove the assumption in the story. How is your conjecture any more accurate? Why not as a reporter for a news outlet, follow up instead of adding to the disinformation?
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by joseflavio on Friday August 02, 2013 @09:13AM (#6146683)
The article was updated.

"The Suffolk County Police Department released a statement this evening that answers the great mystery of the day.

After interviewing the company representatives, Suffolk County Police Detectives visited the subject’s home to ask about the suspicious internet searches. The incident was investigated by Suffolk County Police Department’s Criminal Intelligence Detectives and was determined to be non-criminal in nature."

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by ianterrell on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:02PM (#6142144)
It does make you wonder about the reporting rate on these sorts of events.

Considering the hostile skepticism on the thread about the article Ms Catalano posted, I would not be surprised if other people (especially those without professional writing credentials and a million-strong twitter audience) had decided not to come forward with their stories in the past.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by untog on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:20PM (#6142288)
Considering the hostile skepticism on the thread about the article Ms Catalano posted

There is nothing wrong with skepticism, and I would dispute that it was "hostile". We can't just go around accepting every story we read because it is a story we want it to be real.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by griffordson on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:39PM (#6142430)
Was the same level of skepticism shown when the government claimed that Snowden was lying? Why not?

Why is it that a private citizen is automatically doubted when they make a claim that is easily verifiable but when the government makes a claim that has been repeatedly contradicted by multiple people over the span of years, including at least two sitting US Senators, the government's claims are taken at face value?

Shouldn't her story get a minimum benefit of doubt until some independent reporting can be done on the claims? Especially when everything she claims is plausible given what is known about the government's capabilities.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by untog on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:42PM (#6142460)
Was the same level of skepticism shown when the government claimed that Snowden was lying? Why not?

Uh, didn't really give me a chance to answer there, did you?

I would say that the vast majority of people were skeptical of government claims that Snowden was lying. So the rest of your post is describing a situation that I did not witness.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by cgag on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:25PM (#6142330)
Maybe it's just a matter of perspective but it seems to me to be much more common for people to go around denying stories they don't want to be real (police and government abuses of power).
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by x0x0 on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:19PM (#6142280)
it also makes you wonder if the interrogees still get treated with kid gloves when they aren't relatively well off people with access to money (and therefore lawyers) and large publications/audiences with which to complain.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by argumentum on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:43PM (#6142946)
Everybody Google "backpack" "pressure cooker" "bomb" and tweet/facebook about it. Lets make these sorts of nonsensical and idiotic policies impossible.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by danjayh on Thursday August 01, 2013 @04:05PM (#6143111)
We need someone to leak the list of search keywords that the government considers serious enough to violate the rights of individual Americans, so that we can post handy google links for the whole thing. Good thing Obama is following through on his promise to protect whistleblowers, or people might be afraid to come forward with something like that.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by Keyframe on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:17PM (#6142264)
If this is all true, those systems in place, I am very curious to hear what technically is in place that we haven't heard about. Can't even imagine it.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by danjayh on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:46PM (#6142491)
Welcome to the USSA, comrade.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by riggins on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:06PM (#6142195)
Our government is sending gangs of armed men to perfectly innocent citizens' doors to interrogate them

I don't think hyperbole is necessary. In this case the facts are scary enough (i.e. most people don't consider the police an armed gang).

Who wants the government to have virtually omniscient awareness of their activities?

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by glesica on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:17PM (#6142268)
> most people don't consider the police an armed gang

Actually a significant portion of the population DO consider the police an armed gang, and have done so for quite some time. For starters, poor people in urban areas. The difference is that now wealthier people are starting to be treated the same way poor people have been treated all along.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by incision on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:49PM (#6142519)
Very true.

Growing up I was far more scared of the police than anyone else in what was not a very nice area.

This wasn't cultural conditioning either.

It was the experience of being routinely stopped, questioned, accused, intimidated and occasionally humiliated by being made to partially disrobe. It makes for a terrible feeling of powerlessness when someone else can do whatever they want to you at any time and any effort to avoid much less rebuke the situation will only make it worse.

At least one friend of mine from that time is now a police officer. His experience has only confirmed the prevalence of this ugly "at war" mentality in in law enforcement.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by smtddr on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:34PM (#6142874)
That is exactly what I came here to say. Plenty of people, like me, don't trust the police. In America, probably other countries too, a problem is only recognized as a problem when it affects the wealthy or privileged.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by cpursley on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:36PM (#6142409)
"most people don't consider the police an armed gang"

The police are the very definition of an armed gang. Just a legally sanctioned one.

They have a monopoly on violence - what else would you call it?

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by ktd on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:05PM (#6142671)
I really don't like this sort of intentionally-dense argument by definition. Certainly the police could be called a "gang" under some definitions of the word, but we all know that the implication of "armed gang" in this context is very different. Words have nuance.
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by cpursley on Thursday August 01, 2013 @05:36PM (#6143701)
I'm not against the police necessarily. They have their role in society. But it is what it is - state sanctioned coercion that when balanced correctly, keeps society humming along.

Unfortunately, after the drug war stuff started ratcheting up + 911, the proper balance has shifted.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by sybhn on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:05PM (#6142670)
God forbids you ever get raided in the middle of the night by a swat team because of an administrative error, or minor offense.

With a knee on your back, your face pressed against the ground, barely able to breath and watching your wife going through the same thing. You then might re-evaluate the hyperbole, but you most likely won't because of the feral panic state you would be in.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by kalleboo on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:39PM (#6142919)
Mr Buttle?
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by ballard on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:47PM (#6142975)
Heating engineer
Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by sbarre on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:08PM (#6142211)
> most people don't consider the police an armed gang

Because the militarization of police, and the increasing use of SWAT, are trends that argue against this.

What if next time instead of sending regular officers they send in SWAT?

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by weland on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:47PM (#6142498)
> i.e. most people don't consider the police an armed gang

Give it another few years of militarizing the police force. Government-funded vigilantes with an uniform and a pack of laws to protect them from the consequences of their own abuse is a recipe for succes, tried and tested from China to South America.

Re:Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from t... by cgag on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:26PM (#6142335)
They should update their perception of the police to fit reality.