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Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by dllthomas on Thursday August 01, 2013 @11:40AM (#6141038)
There are several issues here. First, the comparisons are often brought up in response to those claiming - directly or indirectly - that terrorism is an existential threat to America. The fact that we live with things that kill vastly more people puts the lie to that.

Second, the issue is the marginal expenditure to marginal deaths. We spend tremendous effort and some freedom reducing auto accidents, and we reduce them substantially. We don't spend trillions more at this point, because we don't consider it worthwhile. Before 9/11, we had some level of expenditure (of effort, money, freedom) on preventing terrorism, and doubtless saw some reduction in terrorism over what it would have otherwise been, and had it down to some particular level. Since 9/11, we've been spending that plus trillions of dollars and more of our freedoms, and the most we can possibly do is reduce terrorism to zero - and even if the alternative were a significant increase in terrorism (something like 9/11 every other day, instead of - generously - once every several years) there would still be more room to save lives in these other ways.

Finally, 9/11 had an enormous cost, but a lot of the psychological cost is due to fear mongering from people who lack the perspective the numbers bring. Another large portion of that cost is due to lack of resiliency in the companies with offices in the WTC, and companies doing business with those companies, &c. The former is addressed through education and leadership, the latter by encouraging behaviors that will also help in the case of (say) a massive hurricane. None of this is served by a panicked focus on terrorism.

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by chatmasta on Thursday August 01, 2013 @11:48AM (#6141116)
So am I, as a citizen, supposed to be content with a 9/11 scale terrorist attack happening "every few years?" If the idea of that frightens me, am I just falling victim to fear mongering? Do I "lack perspective?"
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by lukifer on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:05PM (#6141241)
Yes. You lack perspective.

If the state can't prevent every murder, why would you expect that it could prevent every terrorist attack? Why does it make any actual difference whether deaths are simultaneous or distributed? Horrible things, intentional and accidental, happen every day, and they can't all be prevented, but you don't waste your time worrying about drunk drivers or lightning strikes, because they're spread out and you don't notice.

You make a reasonable and proportionate effort to protect yourself to the extent that you can, and roll the dice and pray to the extent that you can't. What makes terrorism any different than plain old murder?

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by dllthomas on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:25PM (#6141395)
To all but the first, "yes." If that idea frightens you more than the greater number of murders or accidents or disasters, that kill more people and do more damage, then you have lost perspective - probably because you have fallen victim to fear mongering.

To the first, it depends on what we have to trade away and on what we get in return. There will always be risks, because our resources are finite and the world is occasionally hostile. A 9/11 scale terrorist attack happening every few years is bad, but unless the resources we shift there make a bigger difference in reducing those threats they can make elsewhere, you should be "content" in the sense that that is the result of the policy that you should prefer. In this context, freedom/power can be viewed as an important resource: power in the hands of the security apparatus makes them more effective, but freedom in the hands of the people helps to protect against government abuses (in the extreme, tyranny - but things don't have to get there for it to be important).

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by scarmig on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:13PM (#6141300)
It's an iterated game. And the only way to win is not to play at all.

Once you get into the business of having your government spend trillions of dollars and destroying other countries in response to a couple idiots, you paradoxically make terrorism more likely, because shifts in policy accompany it.

When no one gives a shit, there's no incentive for ideological terrorists to attempt any interesting attacks, leaving only the occasional madman.

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by agilord on Thursday August 01, 2013 @11:59AM (#6141207)
"We spend $0 a year on defense against meteor strike. Should I, as a citizen, be content with meteor strike happening every few years?"

"We spend $0 a year on defense against flesh-eating bacteria. Should I, as a citizen, be content with flesh-eating bacteria happening every few years?"

"We spend $0 a year on defense against maniacs going postal. Should I, as a citizen, be content with maniacs going postal happening every few years?"

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by dllthomas on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:10PM (#6141275)
I don't think any of those statements are true.
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by agilord on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:17PM (#6141327)
Compared to the US defense budgets and what the US spends on counter-terrorism, I think all of these are effectively zero. Yes, there might be programs in the million USD range, but certainly not in the hundreds of billions.
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by dllthomas on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:29PM (#6141427)
Hmm, depends how you count it. Arguably, hospitals are significant defense against flesh eating bacteria, just not terribly targeted. Likewise, police forces, firearm restrictions, and mental health services all serve to reduce somewhat the risks from "maniacs going postal". I wouldn't be surprised if either of these were in the hundreds of billions, though certainly not all of that is federal money. I don't know enough about meteor defense, but expect you're closer to unequivocally right there.
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by agilord on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:35PM (#6141486)
So, police forces do great job to prevent terrorism too. Hospitals have knowledge how to mitigate the casualties of a bioterror attack. By your reasoning, we might say that we already have the infrastructure to prevent the immediate dangers of terrorism too (without the defense budget monster). Oh yes, they are "not terribly targeted" :)
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by dllthomas on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:46PM (#6141585)
I don't know what you're arguing, here. Yes, by my reasoning it's fair to count some of that spending toward fighting terrorism - in fact, I believe that should be a significant portion of our response: investing in resiliency that will help in the event of terrorism but also in the event of the myriad other disasters we are occasionally faced with, and hopefully even when there's no disaster at all.

It's still wrong to say we spend $0 on X, Y, and Z.

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by jhickner on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:54PM (#6142566)
Yes.

David Foster Wallace says it better than I could: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/11/just-ask...

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by gnaritas on Thursday August 01, 2013 @01:26PM (#6141916)
> am I just falling victim to fear mongering? Do I "lack perspective?"

Yes.

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by Goronmon on Thursday August 01, 2013 @11:55AM (#6141175)
So am I, as a citizen, supposed to be content with a 9/11 scale terrorist attack happening "every few years?"

We spend $0 a year on defense against alien invasions. Should I, as a citizen, be content with alien invasions happening every few years?

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by mpyne on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:32PM (#6141457)
Has any alien invasion ever happened?

Also, you don't know that DoD spends nothing against alien invasions. :)

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by dllthomas on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:01PM (#6142641)
This is a poor response - I had posited "every few years"
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by jpttsn on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:38PM (#6142418)
Are you reasoning under the assumption that this can't be the case?
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by mpyne on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:32PM (#6141447)
> Finally, 9/11 had an enormous cost, but a lot of the psychological cost is due to fear mongering from people who lack the perspective the numbers bring

What about the psychological cost of fearmongering about the possibility of 1984-style dystopias vs. the reality of violent attacks whether broken up beforehand or not?

I'm not saying the government should have the powers that it has now, but if you can "live with" terrorism then you can just as easily "live with" surveillance.

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by Homunculiheaded on Thursday August 01, 2013 @12:59PM (#6141681)
History has shown that given power people abuse it, the set up of mass, warrantless, surveillance is itself evidence of this, a feared consequence of the Patriot Act. It is a completely rational fear that given increasing powers government will increasingly abuse them. Also there has been nothing in recent policy that at all demonstrates that the federal government will ever relinquish power once given it. The more power that the government takes without challenge or checks and balances, the more it can easily take in the future. It's a positive feedback system.

"Terrorism" on the other hand does not scale, especially with an adversary so technologically limited oceans away from US borders. Terrorism isn't even meant to scale, it's entire purpose to create a maximal psychological impact because the adversary does not have the resources to achieve any significant damage through force. Even if you look at Isreal's total deaths and injuries from terrorist attacks you'll see that the numbers are small [0,1]. Also, unlike increasing government powers, there is no evidence that terrorists acts on US soil are increasing.

[0] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html [1] http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/osloterr.h...

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by mpyne on Thursday August 01, 2013 @01:11PM (#6141788)
> It is a completely rational fear that given increasing powers government will increasingly abuse them. Also there has been nothing in recent policy that at all demonstrates that the federal government will ever relinquish power once given it

If you really think that then you haven't been paying attention. For example, the Church committee, and later when the U.S. belatedly relaxed controls on computer cryptography, and then even put the NSA and NIST in charge of ensuring the public had great cryptography available to them to protect the public's and government's communications and data.

> "Terrorism" on the other hand does not scale

It doesn't have to scale. You could sit and prepare for years for a single massive attack and get maximal value out of it. As technology improves, so does the ability to for a single malicious agent to kill or maim more and more and more people at a single time, which only gets worse when you combine multiple such agents into a group.

And as you mention, the psychological impact is completely out of proportion to the resources expended. The government is following the public's lead on this. No one wants to be blown up, but even more importantly, no one wants those who try to attack the nation to be simply let off the hook or allowed to attack unopposed.

> Also, unlike increasing government powers, there is no evidence that terrorists acts on US soil are increasing.

Wow, it's almost like there's some unseen force interfering with Al Qaeda's previously-stated wishes to bring violence to American soil...

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by Joeri on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:45PM (#6142964)
> It doesn't have to scale. You could sit and prepare for years for a single massive attack and get maximal value out of it. As technology improves, so does the ability to for a single malicious agent to kill or maim more and more and more people at a single time, which only gets worse when you combine multiple such agents into a group.

So, if we extrapolate towards the future, what you're saying is that the only way to prevent terrorist attacks that kill millions in a single blow is to abandon any and all privacy on a global scale? Because that's what i conclude taking your argument to its logical extreme.

Also, al qaeda didn't have any success attacking on US soil prior to 9/11, so it seems the NSA did some time travelling there. I might also point out that all the information needed to stop the 9/11 plot was known to the government at the time, they just didn't know they knew it. The NSA's warantless wiretapping wouldn't have been necessary to stop 9/11.

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by mpyne on Thursday August 01, 2013 @06:32PM (#6144040)
> So, if we extrapolate towards the future, what you're saying is that the only way to prevent terrorist attacks that kill millions in a single blow is to abandon any and all privacy on a global scale?

No, but what I am saying is that there is very little some suitable middle ground between letting extremists do whatever the hell they want and a total police state.

Notice I've not really been arguing with people who say that more controls are needed on government surveillance, as I agree completely.

I am arguing with people who say things implying that terrorists are dumb or that there is no amount of fatalities that would make even a little bit of law enforcement capability reasonable.

There's a lot of different arguments going on around this, but you'll note that there was not much public outcry about the idea of the police being able to wiretap cell phones, subpoena emails, etc. pursuant to an investigation.

So the issue IMHO is not with government surveillance per se, it with the type of surveillance now available to the NSA, and the oversight that is not currently going along with it.

Back to the point though, the increasingly deadly probability of a single event makes it correspondingly more of a good resource and policy allocation for government to take pains to avoid these events. That doesn't mean unlimited police powers by any stretch; but it does mean we expect people to be detecting and breaking up terror cells before they become deadly.

> Also, al qaeda didn't have any success attacking on US soil prior to 9/11

Don't be silly, the 9/11 attacks were at least the second attack by Al Qaeda on the WTC site.

And either way, what's that matter for this? The U.S. Navy sucked at combat in 1941 and 1942 but by 1944 outclassed the Japanese Navy and aviators even on a 1:1 basis.

The reason AQ sucked at terrorism was because they were crap in general, but they learned over time, gained operational experience, developed training methods and command & control, and built what we in the military call 'corporate knowledge'. All of which leads to a much more effective terrorism 'machine'.

Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by annasaru on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:09PM (#6142215)
Many people believe we are (sooner or later) approaching a 1984-style dystopia.. So that may not be fear mongering, depending on who you talk to.
Re:Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport by mpyne on Thursday August 01, 2013 @03:02PM (#6142642)
People's beliefs are simply not prima facie evidence of what is actually happening though.

Many people believe the Earth is 6000 years old. Many people believe it's impossible for humans to have evolved from apes. Many people believe gay people simply chose to be gay. Many people believed that Sunil was the Boston bomber, right up until it was proved it wasn't him at all. Many people believe that God will heal their child of disease modern medicine eradicated 100 years ago. Many people believe that vaccines cause autism.

In short, many people believe the dumbest things.

To the extent that these things are inaccurate they must be opposed; otherwise you can incite public panic by fearmongering and worse, the people who perceive accurate problems get lost in the noise of the crazies.

To the extent that these accusions are accurate, reason and logic are certainly the way to make that clear. You may get more followers with FUD and rhetoric but those tactics are still just as distasteful when used by us as it is when used against us.