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Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by yread on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:53AM (#6121434)
Yeah if they just used their paper charts, logged the position and compared GPS with the dead reckoning (or depth lines, radar shore returns,..) the attackers would have a much harder time... My sailing instructor always stressed that GPS is unreliable and especially when close to danger one should cross check what it says with other methods. Came in handy when my plotter failed.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by zackbloom on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:57AM (#6121469)
There is more to it than that though. Aircraft often fly instrument approaches using GPS alone, getting to within 500 feet of the ground while still in clouds. If someone could make the aircraft think it was just a couple extra miles in the wrong direction it could be disastrous.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by blhack on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:07AM (#6121534)
No they don't, they land with something called ILS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by hedgie13 on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:18AM (#6121606)
There is more airports in US that have GPS only approaches than airports that have ILS approaches. For example: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1308/05879R25.PDF

500 ft altitude with GPS only (without vertical guidance). LPV minimum is 300 ft.

Category III ILS minimum is 200 ft, Cat II -- 100 ft. But there are a lot of airports where ILS is not available.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by mikeash on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:33AM (#6121706)
A lot of small airports with very little traffic.

Counting airports doesn't give you an accurate picture, because just about any airport can have a GPS approach, since the whole point is that it doesn't require any ground equipment. That doesn't mean those approaches get much use, because people don't fly into those airports all that much, especially not on instrument approaches.

I fly out of an airport with a published GPS approach and no ILS, and people use the GPS approach on well under 1% of the total landings there. Any reasonably busy airport will have ILS.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by hedgie13 on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:40AM (#6121755)
True, they are less busy, but it does not mean GPS is not used for instrument approaches (as parent implied).

I fly airplane without IFR GPS (IFR student), but ATC is trying to assign us GPS approach all the time (when coming into airport with ILS). As far as I understand, GPS approaches are used, even if they are less critical in busier airports. Besides, sometimes ILS is not available in bigger airports as well.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by toomuchtodo on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:04PM (#6121944)
ILS was not available on the SFO runway the Asiana aircraft crashed on ~2 weeks back:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by hedgie13 on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:15PM (#6122007)
Yes, but the weather was clear. No need for ILS in such weather.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by toomuchtodo on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:51PM (#6122253)
Unless of course you've never landed at SFO before in an aircraft you're barely type-rated on.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by mikeash on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:57PM (#6122288)
Neither should matter. A visual landing at any airport is pretty much the same, and the basics don't change for different aircraft. There's nothing at all tricky about a visual approach into SFO.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by jnsaff2 on Monday July 29, 2013 @02:00PM (#6122739)
You've got it backwards: CAT I is 200ft Decision Height (btw, not Minimum Descent) Cat II is 100ft Cat III is 0ft (with differing horizontal visibilities for IIIa/IIIb/IIIc
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by hedgie13 on Monday July 29, 2013 @02:56PM (#6123086)
I am wearing paper bag for the rest of the day. Not enough caffeine in the morning.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by bargl on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:27PM (#6122088)
>Limitations Glide slope station for runway 09R at Hannover Airport in Germany

>Due to the complexity of ILS localizer and glide slope systems, there are some limitations. Localizer systems are sensitive to obstructions in the signal broadcast area like large buildings or hangars. Glide slope systems are also limited by the terrain in front of the glide slope antennas. If terrain is sloping or uneven, reflections can create an uneven glidepath causing unwanted needle deflections. Additionally, since the ILS signals are pointed in one direction by the positioning of the arrays, glide slope supports only straight-line approaches with a constant angle of descent. Installation of an ILS can be costly because of siting criteria and the complexity of the antenna system.

>ILS critical areas and ILS sensitive areas are established to avoid hazardous reflections that would affect the radiated signal. The location of these critical areas can prevent aircraft from using certain taxiways[3] leading to delays in takeoffs, increased hold times, and increased separation between aircraft.

You don't think that the ILS system could be vulnerable to an attack similar to this? The main point of the article is that we rely on tech that is insecure to give us our location and that can be influenced by an outside source. If that outside source is nefarious in nature then we can experience some real issues.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by yread on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:14PM (#6123588)
While ILS is generally considered to be the second most reliable instrument (after the windsock) it has its own problems... For example false glidescope, see http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%20Briefings%20_%20Presen...
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by iliis on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:31PM (#6122547)
As always when this comes up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams

Yes, you can indeed hijack an ILS system. At least during WW2.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by snom380 on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:55PM (#6123812)
You can hijack it, but there are monitoring systems in place to detect if something is out of place. Also, ATC will usually notice flight path deviations quite quickly, at least on manned airports with radar coverage.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by ceejayoz on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:43PM (#6122183)
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by eCa on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:48PM (#6122231)
Considering how unreliable GPS altitude information is [1], I would like to not be on board when they do that..

For more information regarding what happens if someone alters the altitude of a plane, see [2].

[1] http://www.gpsinformation.net/main/altitude.htm

[2] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099423/

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by mbrameld on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:54AM (#6121859)
Do you have a source for aircraft flying using GPS alone? My understanding is that they rely on VOR and ILS systems.
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by VLM on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:46PM (#6122209)
You can interpret that question a lot of different ways.

For example ultralights are pretty much "You're small and light enough not to cause much damage when you crash; don't do anything stupid". So yes, I am quite sure there are heavier-than-air flying machines carrying humans and a GPS unit as their sole navigational tool. As if you need advanced tools for what a ultralight can actually handle in practice, LOL.

On the other hand if you go to the E-CFR and look at FAA reg 91.205 if you want to climb above/thru FL240 you need a working DME or RNAV kinda implies any commercial operation must have VOR-type gear installed.

Note that the same playback hack that works really well on GPS works even better and easier on old fashioned VOR gear.

Merely being required to have operational gear doesn't mean a little angel is perched on each pilot's shoulder making sure they actually do have the gear, and they know how to use it, and they are actually using it.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by mcguire on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:41PM (#6122170)
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/aim01...

(Scroll up to 1-1-19. Global Positioning System (GPS). The FAA's links are all wacky.)

This is the FAA's Aeronautical Information Manual.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by fnordfnordfnord on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:00PM (#6122311)
Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by asynchronous13 on Monday July 29, 2013 @02:13PM (#6122816)
> using GPS alone

Yes, I'm sure that pilots routinely ignore the altimeter, air speed indicator, climb rate indicator, compass ....

GPS is useful, but no competent pilot ignores all of the other sensors and uses GPS alone.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by diminoten on Monday July 29, 2013 @02:48PM (#6123041)
Okay folks, "just do it manually" is not a solution. This is technology designed to make doing it manually obsolete. We're trying to design systems that can eventually run without human interaction, so saying a solution to this problem is to have a human just do it isn't viable and doesn't make sense and is fairly obvious, to boot.

The story here is that we thought we had designed a system which can do this without human interaction, and now/whenever it was discovered we're realizing we're not done yet. That this can be done by a person with a compass and a map is not a comment worth the text it's written with.

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by VLM on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:11PM (#6123190)
Thats a terrible system design, because all single points of failure eventually fail. Curl up and die is not a valid response to failure. The only valid solution always must end with "do it manually", that can never be removed. Doesn't matter if its a plane, ship, refinery/chem plant, or reactor control rod.

People who don't know much about GPS think the satellites are eternally autonomous but that is not the case. There are precisely two uplink control points on the planet which control them. Both in the USA as I recall.

Another interesting problem is lifetime mismatch. It would be foolish to create a system which depends on and could outlive the current GPS constellation.

Also being in the USA we tend to assume the fedgov is on our side and our side is everyone's side, but the rest of the world has found out the hard way many times over to never assume that is or will always be the case. So absolute best case is you should never deploy a worldwide system with a SPOF controlled by a foreign power.

"The story here is that we thought we had designed a system which can do this without human interaction"

No it was designed for humans (mostly US soldiers) to geolocate themselves, so they could help orient themselves on paper maps. This whole idea of pasting a navigation system, or even worse, an autonomous navigation system, on top is a good example of feature creep resulting in systemic failure.

You probably could design a redundant, tough, reliable, world wide (or at least, wide range) autonomous navigation system. It would not look anything like GPS. It would probably look a heck of a lot like a weird cross between the VOR system and authenticated LORAN. It would take a lot longer than a HN post to nail it down exactly, but I'm sure that whatever it optimized down to, it wouldn't resemble GPS very closely. In the grand tradition of all copier machines being called Xerox machines, I'm sure that whatever this successor system is called, the general unwashed masses will continue to call it a "GPS" to the immense confusion of people who actually know what they're talking about.

A planetary scale authenticated mostly decentralized web of trust mesh network of millions of stationary beacons and mobile inertial navigation systems with computational countermeasures to fight intentional bad actors? Probably providing global internet access via the mesh while you're at it, because it's there?

Re:Texas students fake GPS signals and take control of an $8... by diminoten on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:12PM (#6123575)
Just because something is complicated doesn't mean we can't automate it. That's the "curl up and die" solution that you yourself say is not an acceptable response to failure.

And GPS isn't what I was talking about, the automatic navigation system on the $80 million yacht was the system we designed which we thought could be run without human interaction.

And your paranoid delusion that the US can/would use its GPS satellites offensively is just that - paranoid delusion.