For the very earliest employees in a startup, you should pay little more than living expenses in salary, because you only want people who want mostly equity. How much equity to give them is always a negotiation.

The underlying principles are described here: http://paulgraham.com/equity.html

That was an excellent article, I think. I was following along up until the 1.5 multiplier, 50% "profit", 11.1% "retail" price part. I have no idea where those numbers came from. Will someone please enlighten me?

thanks pg ;-D

80,000 to 120,000 depending on experience.

Anything less, and you are getting screwed. Anything more, and you are actually good either technically. or at negotiation.

Don't sell yourself for little thou. You have all the power of negotiation BEFORE joining the company. After that, it will be very hard to get any big raises.

The other thing, is to consider equity. Are you joining as just an employee of as a early starter employee that will creat their technology backbone.

In the Midwest in dollars per hour, newbs bill for 30-35 per hour. junior programers 35-55 senior 50-80 niche jr 50-85 niche sr 85-150 enterprise niche 100-250

thanks!

Wow those numbers are bizarre compared to what I see in Belgium. Programmer jobs don't make much more than average other jobs here actually.

Junior programmers get paid around 25000 EUR per year (before taxes) - that equates to 35000 USD.

Need a little more information. Is this a startup without any programmers who is looking for an integrated team member? Or is there already a lot of technical people on staff and you're just looking to offload some of the work?

It makes a big difference.

1) Whatever you feel you're worth.

2) Whatever you feel you're worth.

The limiting factor in your compensation is usually your own reluctance to ask for "way too much".

That's true for consultants; it doesn't hold if you're a full-time employee. For employee salaries, the limiting factor is still what the boss is willing to pay.

There's been a lot of noise about consultant hourly rates, lately. But make no mistake: consultants make more in large part because they have to cover their own costs (insurance, employment taxes, SSI, etc.) The true cost of a full-time employee is significantly higher than their salary.

In my very limited experience, it seems to hold true for full-time employees as well. You simply have to be willing to leave if they aren't willing to pay you what you want. You're a lot more valuable to them than they are to you.

All I meant was what the boss is willing to pay you is often higher than you might think.. And perhaps even higher than he might think :)

You're begging the original question. Sure, your market value might be higher than you expect -- but it might be lower, too. Are you willing to walk away from a good job for a potentially unreasonable expectation of higher salary?

The OP wanted to know the salary range for a programmer in San Francisco. I guess I don't see relativism ("it's as high as you want it to be") as a particularly helpful response.

Hmm... I was feeling pensive today, so I probably got too creative and derailed the thread. I apologize :)

I'd make it up by giving a helpful response, but I don't live in San Fran. I hope he finds the answer though!

payscale.com

I always find those sites to be annoying. I bet making a better one would make for a good startup. How, I don't know, that's up to whoever takes on the problem to figure out.

forget it, you'll never be satisfied, just start your own company and set the price as low as you can for other people.