> I absolutely disagree with this.

And I absolutely disagree with your disagreement.

> Community soccer, basketball, baseball, once or twice a week.

Nope. They can just play together. It doesn't have to be competitive sport. What if they say they wanted to run around in circles or play spaceship on the playground, or say help one of the dad in the yard or fix a car. Some might like to play chess or paint for example.

> It helps them learn to socialize

Just playing together with other kids and making up their own games is good enough to socialize. They could be kicking a ball half an hour then climbing trees the next. They don't have to necessarily compete with other teams to get that.

> makes them less likely to be bullied or outcasts at school because they will have a wider circle of friends

They are in the wrong school or adults are not doing their job if they are bullied because they don't play sports.

> Also like it or not, especially for men, sports is a common bonding activity even when you get into adult life.

Well I don't like it. I would rather discuss virtual machine implementations or sci fi novels. I don't give a shit about who plays in the superbowl or what hockey teams names are.

> If you can't at least talk about last Sunday's football games or play a game of pickup basketball after work, you are going to be excluded from a lot of networks.

I am doing pretty well for myself. I can talk about politics, linguistics, computers, some music, sci-fi, movies, there is plenty of other stuff. If talking about sports is what is going to exclude me, then please, exclude me. I don't want to be included in that group to begin with.

All of my anecdotal evidence is that those who played sports as a kid can do all sorts of varied stuff, too, but they're also (unsurprisingly) better at athletics. I'm struggling to find the downside in that. In fact, my friends who didn't play sports as a kid generally regret it, especially when they end up in a random holiday volleyball game (for example). But, you know, anecdotal. Feel free to ignore.

I never played sports, and didn't like much physical activity past around 12, but before that I would hike around local forests (you know, random peoples private property) and we would build tree forts. I would have hated a forced competitive environment at that age and would have resented my parents for forcing that on me. It is important to introduce a child to the existence of sports, in the sense you need to expose them to as broad a spectrum of activity and skill as possible. But to force it upon them even if they don't take an interest in it is going against their personal interests, and they won't enjoy doing it.

> It helps them learn to socialize and work in groups towards a goal, keeps them physically active, makes them less likely to be bullied or outcasts at school because they will have a wider circle of friends and will have had more exposure to dealing with confrontation/competition.

I call BS on this. Sports as a way to socialize? As a kid I saw that sports were just another way to bully other kids or ridicule them, or call them names. I never ever saw sports as having any kind of positive aspect on the ones who were already ostracized by their peers.

And who are you to say that kids "Should" do this or that? Why don't you leave out the choice to the kids or the parents in that matter? As for me, I learnt much more by spending time on computers as a kid than joining sports clubs during the weekends.

> Also like it or not, especially for men, sports is a common bonding activity even when you get into adult life.

Huh? You mean like these people behaving like apes in these modern-days arenas, yelling at 20 people running on the grass and hitting drums while drinking beer ? Yeah, what a great way to socialize. I avoid people interested in these sports altogether, and my social life does not suffer from it. You just end up with different people.

You know, adults actually PLAY sports for...you know, FUN...

Fun to me is reading novels, or solving puzzles, or doing unit tests, or going to Project Euler and trying to solve as many conundrums as possible with 8 cups of strong coffee and 5 hours in the dark of night. Fun to me is listening to jazz while sitting with a calculus textbook, trying to learn integration, or spending long hours on Wikipedia reading up about category theory after getting obsessed with Haskell.

Am I weird? Probably.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/just_alerting_you.jpg

Probably you are not too weird in the HN crowd. I can relate with what you do :) That is why there is such a great community here.

Your hobbies are awesome, and I'm being sincere. I was merely addressing this statement made in response to the claim that sports is a common bonding activity:

> Huh? You mean like these people behaving like apes in these modern-days arenas, yelling at 20 people running on the grass and hitting drums while drinking beer?

The implication was that the only bonding obtained through sports was through spectating obnoxiously, while many people enjoy playing sports together.

Point taken, and I agree. I like to watch baseball sometimes, but I took issue with people who implied that children should be brought up with sports as a cornerstone of their lives whether they like it or not.

I do all of those things (well, I already know integration), but I also love playing all sports, cycling running, triathlons. I am not sure what point I am making, then I am not sure what point you were making.

I think what he is saying is that there are multiple ways to have fun and to socialize, and there sports is not a mandatory activity for that purpose (that was the point of the discussion a couple of posts above).

None of the things he mentioned addressed socializing, or even physical activity.

> It helps them learn to socialize and work in groups towards a goal, keeps them physically active

It mentions socializing and physical activity. What are you referring to ?

I absolutely disagree. I never played sports as a kid, and I turned out fine. Instead, I spent time on my computer and ran around the neighborhood with the kids that lived around me. This is actually another reason why I believe I have a lot of creativity; I came up with new games and things to do for fun instead of working within the barriers of sport.

Children should be allowed to be whoever they want to be, and if our education systems cannot support that, there's a huge problem.

I understand your concern about physical activity, but that's something that should be instilled by parents and through health education classes. As children reach their teenage and adult years, they should understand the importance of exercise and well-being, not just that smashing into people on the football field keeps them fit.

Like it or not, the world doesn't revolve around sports. Some people will enjoy them, and others won't. Simple as that. Have you ever thought of, I don't know, letting the children decide what they want to do for fun? As I said, playing sports is not a requirement to becoming healthy. Those principles can be taught through different methods. I never played sports, but I still go the gym everyday and feel satisfied after a good workout.

I agree with part of what you're saying.

I think that kids should be exposed to a wide range of experiences - it's important that they get to self-direct, but if we let all 4 year olds only eat and do what they wanted, we'd have very limited children.

Along those lines, it's important that children be made to play sports to a certain degree - they might find something that excites them, they might learn to love it after a little while, or later in life, they might regret never having had the opportunity to experience it.

But, I don't buy the less likely to be bullied argument, or the bonding activity argument. I played sports for years, stopped when more artistic interests took over, and I can't talk about what's going on in professional sports at the moment. And my basketball skills have gone to hell, other than a decent hook shot I somehow haven't lost.

So, yes, it's important to expose your kids to sports to a certain degree, in order to expose them to a broader life generally than the one they might choose to experience at a young age. But I don't think sports in and of itself is a requirement for a well-adjusted upbringing.

There have been studies of eating behavior where children given long term access to a wide range of high quality food choices end up with a fairly heathy diet. Aka they Day 1 they may just go for desert but day 40 there eating veggies, meat, and everything else.

Quoting myself here to illustrate what you think you are disagreeing about that isn't really a disagreement between us, I wrote,

A young hacker shouldn't be told to set aside the computer and play Little League baseball.

And what I meant there, and thank you for joining issue with this so that the issue is clear to onlookers, is that no child should be forced to DROP something personally important and educational for them solely to fit in with what everyone else is doing. In actual fact (and I think a reader who used the search function on HN could find examples of me saying this) I encourage all of my children to participate in team competitive sports. Because of the healthy developmental nature of our local youth soccer club, all four of my children, from my hacker son who now lives in New York City to my daughter, have played "travel" competitive soccer through that club. All three of my boys have qualified for the Minnesota state championship tournament at various age and competitive levels, and my second son has won a state championship with his teammates. So I by no means disdain sports. I'm very proud of having four children who all have achieved more in sports than either of their parents ever did. (Sports were not emphasized in my upbringing in my family, nor in my wife's upbringing in her family.)

I do indeed promote activities for my children that provide "well-roundedness" and especially activities that provide commonalities with other young people growing up in the same time and place. It's just that I don't do that at the expense of my children having a LOT of time to pursue their own interests. (That's why we homeschool--to have the schedule flexibility to allow a both-and of deep involvement in something meaningful to each child and broad involvement in things that build connections with other people.)

Thanks for checking. I FULLY agree with you, based on my own experience, that men growing up in the United States are well advised to have sports involvement. That helps them have a lot to talk about with other men. It's not strictly necessary, but sports involvement is awfully helpful.

Not necessary at all, as you say, but it's never hurt. I'm a smallish, nerdy, computer programmer. On a camping trip this weekend I tossed a football around with a guy I might never have chatted with otherwise. I'm so thankful I learned how to do that when I was a small child. My parents were right to push me in that direction when I might have preferred staying in with my Apple II.

But where in the article does it say anything about forcing him to drop painting to fit in? I think you're reading too much into this.

There are a number of activities other than competitive team sports for children that involve socializing in groups, staying active, and working toward a shared goal.

Children already experience far too much pressure to conform to expected norms of social interests, particularly gendered social interests. Parents ought not add to it by implicitly or explicitly telling them there's something wrong with them for their interest or lack thereof in sports.

As for the expectations of adult men, I cannot remember a situation in my adult life in which something like a simple joke along the lines of "baseball.. let's see, that's sports, right?" hasn't been enough to convey that I'm not interested without being hostile or disrespectful to others' passions.

I've never been athletic at all, and I generally dislike playing sports, but I still appreciate having been encouraged to do little league and basketball when I was a kid. It's not about forcing kids to conform to social norms, it's just ensuring they're well-rounded enough so that they can make their own choices later in life.

My parents sent me to a school where painting, woodworking and handworking (basically knitting, sewing, crocheting) were all mandatory. It pays dividends now because having a background of creativity helps nearly everyone, even plain-jane computer programmers like me. Everyone had to perform in a play every year, no matter how much you didn't want to. That helped build confidence and the ability to speak in front of people. Gym and sports and recess are all important too -- no one regrets having too much hand-eye coordination, or the ability to play a pickup game of basketball without making a fool of oneself later in life. It's great to be able to relate to and be friends with people who are into sports even if you aren't, because the alternative is to politely remove yourself from all those interactions, and that's no fun for anyone.

I really do think that all kids should play team sports. If it's totally obvious that their passion is theater, or computers, or art, or music, or whatever it is, then there's no need to try out for the varsity team in high school, but giving kids diverse experiences and making sure they are physically active and aware of their bodies is never a bad thing.

> If you can't at least talk about ..., you are going to be excluded from a lot of networks.

Not only do I disagree intensely with your post, but I'm a male high-school student, and trust me, I wouldn't want to be included in those "networks" you speak of anyhow. Sports aren't for everyone. Every single positive you have named about sports can just as easily be attributed to other activities. Socialization? What are we doing here on HN? What do kids do when they go to school and talk and gossip? Working in groups toward a goal? What about them tackling a computer programming project together?

I found your comments about bullying and friendships downright belittling. A wider social circle does not mean better friendships, in fact, it tends to be quite the opposite. My wounds are still fresh; it is wiser to have fewer and closer than more and shallower. Physical activity also doesn't have to involve sports per se -- lots of outdoor time is wise. Also, why can't competition be encouraged through academic competition? Or, for that matter, anything intellectual?

This overarching, sexist, and patriarchal view that men have to resort to primal physical exertion in order to be accepted in society is quite insulting, so if you would please broaden your outlooks, we'd be all the better for it.

You will also find (if you haven't already) once you are outside of the highly restrictive environment of compulsory education your exposure to people who have limited outlooks or plainly don't use their brains is much more limited.

It was night and day between the last day of high school and the first day of college. You suddenly get access to associate only with who you want to, rather than who you are stuck in a locked building for 8 hours a day with.

You are suggesting online chat and forums are equivalent to socialising in groups at school. You also seem to gloss over the health benefits of staying active in sports.

Team Sports Suck.

Physical activity has much to recommend it but I never gave a shit about watching or playing team sports and my various school's focus on team sports over any other physical exercise put me off exercise for a long, long time. If all of your experience of "exercise" is that it is one or all of boring, unpleasant or full of wankers it does rather put one off it.

I'm glad I found jogging and later weightlifting and if my friends are going to be drinking while watching some sports game, awesome, I'll come to the pub too. But I'm not going to pretend interest in sports for the same reason I do not moderate my political opinions though I do censor them. I do not care about this shit and am unwilling to pretend to care, and if you prod me I will tell you I. just. do. not. care.

EDIT: If you feel like taking part or you enjoy it, fine, whatever. Exercise and bonding are both generally good. I'm just glad my father gave up when he saw I was more interested in seeing the gravel trickle through my fingers than watching the rugby game he was watching. Forcing people who are not interested in team sports to play or watch just leads to many having a negative association with exercise, which is a pity.

I don't think sports like basketball and baseball are even offered to 4 and 5 year olds. (Soccer might be) At the younger ages, team sports do not help much with bullying or friendships or even sports proficiency later on in life. The kids are too small and scatterbrained and uncoordinated to develop the skills needed and all those friendships are forgotten as the kid gets older.

Where I grew up, pretty much all the kids who were awkward and unpopular and got bullied in junior high and high school did the same youth sports as everyone else when they were 9-10 years old. It didn't help them out too much later on.

Kids need exercise and socialization, though. I'd argue that they should learn things where starting very early offers a big advantage. Sports such as surfing, gymnastics, skiing, ice skating, swimming, etc. It seems like if an activity heavily involves balance or the water it helps to learn it as early as possible.

> If you can't at least talk about last Sunday's football games or play a game of pickup basketball after work, you are going to be excluded from a lot of networks.

This may be true, but I'm curious what you feel the value of these "networks" has been or will be in the future.

I can only relate my own experience, which is that of supreme disinterest in just about every American team sport. I'm quite capable of following last Sunday's game, I just don't give a damn.

Thus far in my adult life I haven't felt the need to slither my way into a social group. Should I start? If so, why? I obviously haven't felt significant pressure to do so yet, or I would have already. This is actually a genuine question, although I'm obviously biased towards my own answer.

I lived that. Back when I first started hacking, my parents forced me to play Little League Baseball. I feel it did nothing besides hold me back. I dreaded going to practice. I dreaded going to games. It made me hate life for a while.

if for nothing else, learning at a young age to play (and function) as part of a team is extremely important; moreover, even if you suck at the sport, it's an important life lesson to find a way to best contribute to the team's success. imho, it's even more important for gifted kids, who are otherwise 'better' than everyone else and generally have a tendency to go it alone.

i was one of the youngest kids in the class and a pretty dorky kid growing up but, without a doubt, playing sports throughout elementary school made all the difference between being the subject of an occasional joke and being picked on continuously. i was bored to death, and was honestly pretty bad, but i'm glad my mom signed me up each year.

i have two sons, my oldest heading into 1st grade, and i can already see the same effect.

If you don't play D&D you might be excluded from some networks. Like the Dallas Gaming Mafia.