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Re:Secret government: America against democracy by snowwrestler on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @06:26PM (#6016087)
> How is the FISA court like a shadow Supreme Court? Its interpretation of the constitution is treated by the federal government as law.

All federal court decisions are treated by the federal government as law. The Supreme Court just happens to have the last word on appeal.

Generally speaking in the U.S., "the law" is not what the text of a bill says, it is what the courts say the text means.

> And then there's the fact that "the FISA court hears from only one side in the case—the government—and its findings are almost never made public."

Grand jury proceedings are also secret and hear only from the government. That is ok because a grand jury is not determining guilt, it is just deciding whether a prosecution can proceed. Likewise, FISA is not determining guilt, it is just deciding whether an investigation can employ certain tactics and technologies.

Re:Secret government: America against democracy by aetherson on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @07:00PM (#6016277)
Grand juries do not issue opinions on things like "the meaning of the 4th Amendment." It seems appropriate to apply just a tiny bit more scrutiny to the FISA court than grand juries.
Re:Secret government: America against democracy by tptacek on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @08:04PM (#6016535)
FISC also doesn't issue opinions on "the meaning of the 4th Amendment". The most important way the courts have shaped 4th Amendment jurisprudence in the last century is through application of the exclusionary rule in criminal cases. FISC doesn't hear criminal cases, and if evidence from NSA/FISA was brought up in a domestic criminal case, it would be evaluated by a normal domestic court judge and, very likely, excluded.
Re:Secret government: America against democracy by ncallaway on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @09:39PM (#6016924)
>FISC also doesn't issue opinions on "the meaning of the 4th Amendment"

The FISC most certainly does use the Fourth Amendment as a major part of the justification of it's rulings. The "secret ruling" that the EFF and ACLU are trying to view was a FISC ruling that held that on at least one occasion the government had conducted surveillance that was unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/29/ron_wyden...).

> "The most important way the courts have shaped 4th Amendment jurisprudence in the last century is through application of the exclusionary rule in criminal cases."

I think this ignores a large body of civil case law built up around wrongful arrests and vehicular searches. Both of these are examples of active jurisprudence over the last century that directly pertain to Fourth Amendment violations.

A violation of the Fourth Amendment is not acceptable simply because they don't use what they obtained in a criminal proceeding. There are a massive number of ways that the government can harm you with the information they collect without ever filing a criminal case.

Re:Secret government: America against democracy by aetherson on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @08:39PM (#6016665)
But in fact it does issue opinions on the meaning of the 4th Amendment. It applies judgment on whether given searches are legal and constitutional, which the government apparently regards as being normal judicial precedent.

The fact that those warrants then never lead to ordinary criminal cases is precisely the point.

Re:Secret government: America against democracy by snowwrestler on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @11:09PM (#6017224)
4th Amendment protections do not even apply to grand jury proceedings; prosecutors can present evidence to a grand jury even if it was collected illegally and will likely be excluded at trial.