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Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by lisper on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:11PM (#5996018)
No, Klein is absolutely correct, and you are absolutely wrong. Roberts has the power to appoint FISA judges. That power is clearly the power to "shape the surveillance state." There is no mechanism to review his appointments, hence the power is unaccountable. Roberts alone has this power, hence "exclusive." And until the law is changed, he has this power for as long as he is chief justice, hence "lifetime."
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:12PM (#5996025)
There absolutely is a mechanism to review his appointments. Not only could Congress pass a law recalling any FISC judge, but it could also pass a law revoking Roberts authority over FISC, or abolish the FISC court entirely. There would be fuck-all Roberts could do about it.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by lisper on Friday July 05, 2013 @03:31PM (#5996378)
> There absolutely is a mechanism to review his appointments.

Not at the present time there isn't.

> Congress [could] pass a law

Saying that Roberts's appointments are reviewable because Congress could change the law is exactly analogous to saying that murder is legal because Congress could change the law. It is true that Congress could change the law. But unless and until it actually does change the law, murder is in fact illegal, and Roberts's appointments are in fact not reviewable.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @03:36PM (#5996405)
Congress cannot make murder legal. Congress can strip Roberts of his FISC powers. The situations are not analogous.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by lisper on Friday July 05, 2013 @03:58PM (#5996500)
> Congress cannot make murder legal.

I chose a bad example because murder is generally illegal under state law, not federal law (though there are exceptions). But there are things that are illegal under federal law that Congress has the power to change. Those things are in fact illegal (now) notwithstanding that Congress could change the law and make them legal. Likewise, Robert's appointments are not reviewable (now) notwithstanding that Congress could change the law and make his appointments reviewable.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @04:52PM (#5996701)
It has nothing to do with state versus federal and everything to do with the core issue here. Congress can't make murder legal because to do so would be unconstitutional.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by lisper on Friday July 05, 2013 @05:23PM (#5996814)
That is ridiculous. Congress could make murder legal (at least at the federal level) by simply repealing 18 USC 1111. There is nothing in the Constitution that would prevent them from doing that. Murder would, of course, still be illegal at the state level, but focusing on that would be missing the point rather badly. Murder is a red herring. The fact of the matter is that there are things that are not legal by virtue of the existence of federal laws. Congress could make those things legal by repealing those laws, but until and unless it does so those things are illegal. Likewise, the fact of the matter is that Roberts's appointments to the FISA court are not reviewable. Congress could make them reviewable, but until and unless it does so, they are not reviewable. That Congress could make them reviewable in the future does not make them reviewable in the present and more than the fact that Congress could make something legal in the future makes it legal in the present. It takes an extraordinary level of obtuseness not to grasp this elementary linguistic point.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by apalmer on Friday July 05, 2013 @06:33PM (#5997052)
Pretty much ^^^

I think this is an interesting but (apparently) subtle argument, so lets take it a step further for illustration purposes.

The US could repeal the first amendment, and explicitly make being a buddhist illegal, if enough congressmen got on board. There is a clear well known process for this, and in fact even precedent as previous amendments have been repealed. This does not make it incorrect to say 'freedom of religion is a inalienable right in the USA', because it is such today, as the law stands, the fact that congress has the power to change this doesn't make it a false statement...

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by defen on Friday July 05, 2013 @09:34PM (#5997548)
> The US could repeal the first amendment, and explicitly make being a buddhist illegal, if enough congressmen got on board.

This actually ties into the anti-federalist argument against the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Where in the Constitution is Congress authorized to make laws regarding the practice of religion?

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by shpxnvz on Saturday July 06, 2013 @09:23PM (#6000673)
> Where in the Constitution is Congress authorized to make laws regarding the practice of religion?

The Commerce Clause, of course! I imagine they would argue that money donated to churches would otherwise be used to purchase goods and services. Or that time spent worshipping would otherwise be used in production.

I'm only half joking.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by aclevernickname on Sunday July 07, 2013 @10:12AM (#6002058)
If you think the parent is incorrect, I invite everyone to look up Gonzales v. Raich, and Wickard v. Filburn. Everything is commerce, and therefore regulated under Congress via the commerce clause.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by shpxnvz on Monday July 08, 2013 @10:24PM (#6010731)
I don't think it's incorrect, which is why I brought up the commerce clause in the first place (with Filburn in mind). I agree, to congress everything is commerce. It's just such a farce that it would strain credulity if it wasn't so clearly evidenced. We truly live in a mockery of a rational world.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by aclevernickname on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @06:42AM (#6011989)
forgive me. I was breaking down the fourth wall, and talking to the reader of the thread themselves. I was trying to support your argument. :)
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by zowch on Friday July 05, 2013 @07:24PM (#5997180)
Pedantic and tangential, but in your example, the statement would still be incorrect, as a revocable right is, by definition...well, alienable.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday July 06, 2013 @08:45AM (#5998724)
That's kind of the point. You can't argue that a specific right is not inalienable just because a process exists by which it could be denied, unless your point is to argue that no rights can ever be inalienable, or that no power can ever be unaccountable, etc.

We say that someone is unaccountable when the process required to lead to their accountability subsequent to misbehavior is in practice not likely to occur, not when the absolute lack of accountability can be proven with mathematical rigor.

This is the same pedantry that leads engineers to come up with crazy legal arguments. The fact that velocity is relativistic and relative to an external observer not subject to the rotation of the Earth your vehicle was not exceeding the speed limit is not going to get you out of a speeding ticket, no matter how many times you argue that it's technically correct. Because when people say things they do so within an accepted context that doesn't include the sort of pedantic absolutism that would cause arbitrary good faith statements made in the course of normal conversation to become technically inaccurate when weighed against impossible standards.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by bulatb on Saturday July 06, 2013 @09:36PM (#6000707)
Any "right" can be revoked by someone with a bigger gun.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by bradleyjg on Friday July 05, 2013 @05:10PM (#5996760)
Are you talking affirmatively authorizing murder rather then simply not penalizing it? Because I can't think of any constitutional provision that even hints at a requirement for Congress to promulgate a penal code at all.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by rhizome on Friday July 05, 2013 @05:30PM (#5996838)
Congress can and has made murder legal: people executed under the death penalty have "Homicide" listed on their death certificate as the cause of death.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by anigbrowl on Friday July 05, 2013 @07:24PM (#5997181)
Homicide != murder.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by rhizome on Sunday July 07, 2013 @01:52AM (#6001192)
Since GP was not arguing for that nuance I'm gonna call your distinction between homicide and capital-M Murder a legalism.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by CamperBob2 on Friday July 05, 2013 @05:49PM (#5996911)
Congress can't make murder legal because to do so would be unconstitutional

And conveniently enough, who gets to make that call?

How you can argue that this isn't a rigged system is, well, interesting.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by angersock on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:20PM (#5996055)
Congress could do a great many things--and yet, here we are. I think you have too much faith in our legislative branch.

(Consider the turnout for the briefings on this nonsense a couple of weeks ago--most skipped out to catch flights home.)

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:22PM (#5996074)
I have very little faith in Congress, but I don't need to in order to make the point I'm making.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by sigzero on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:35PM (#5996132)
The whole point is that Congress CAN change everything about the FISC courts and Roberts CANNOT do anything about that. So the article is wrong on that aspect.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by fnordfnordfnord on Saturday July 06, 2013 @11:03AM (#5999034)
>(Consider the turnout for the briefings on this nonsense a couple of weeks ago--most skipped out to catch flights home.)

Attending those briefings is a poison pill. Before being briefed, members must swear not to reveal any of the content of the briefing.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by angersock on Saturday July 06, 2013 @03:54PM (#5999848)
So, the right thing to do would be to protest that fact loudly to their constituents--something which I do not believe they've done. As it is, they simple look derelict in their duty.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by censored on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:44PM (#5996177)
Not if NSA has enough dirt on each congress-person (or their family)
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:50PM (#5996200)
Or if they use their secret NSA drones to drone strike them.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by fnordfnordfnord on Saturday July 06, 2013 @11:18AM (#5999070)
Good point! I checked, and it turns out that it is not written in any law passed by congress that the NSA is explicitly empowered to extort congressmen for its own ends. So, yeah, that guy is just crazy for suggesting such a thing.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by censored on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:54PM (#5996222)
They don't need to, when the surveillance ensures compliance with the implied threat. Or are you just trolling?
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by jlgreco on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:58PM (#5996237)
Yes, he is mocking you by suggesting something outlandish to imply what you are suggesting is also outlandish.

Nevermind that politicians being blackmailed is hardly unheard of...

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by cpleppert on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:43PM (#5996167)
>>Not only could Congress pass a law recalling any FISC judge

I'm not sure this would be constitutional. Courts have rules that the term limits on FISA judges don't impact their standing as regular article III judges. Arbitrary removal almost certainly would.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @02:45PM (#5996179)
They can't remove federal judges from the federal bench.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by coldtea on Friday July 05, 2013 @03:03PM (#5996261)
Yes, but why argue for the beef of the matter, when you can argue about metaphors and rhetorical misuses?
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @03:08PM (#5996274)
Because the subtext of the article is that Roberts himself is an intractable obstacle to reforming FISC, when in fact all the responsibility for doing so is properly on Congress, at whose pleasure Roberts serves in his capacity as FISC judge appointer. The article is inadvertently letting Congress off the hook.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by zhemao on Friday July 05, 2013 @05:37PM (#5996867)
What part of the article suggests that Roberts is an obstacle to reform? The article only states that in its current formulation, FISC does not have a lot of accountability because the judges are all chosen by Roberts with no input from any other part of government.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @05:46PM (#5996901)
The only branch of government that doesn't have influence over FISC is the executive, which runs NSA.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by lawnchair_larry on Friday July 05, 2013 @09:05PM (#5997476)
I don't think that is the most reasonable interpretation. I think the article argues that we do need reform, because in its current state, the system does exhibit the properties described.

It's not letting congress off the hook, it's painting a bullseye and applying pressure for them to pull the trigger. Until they do so, John Roberts has exclusive, unaccountable, lifetime power to shape the surveillance state.

While I too prefer code that compiles with -pedantic, I'm willing to forgive this author, and I don't see anything to suggest that the author believes that he is an intractable obstacle. I even think it's extraordinarily unlikely that any journalist sincerely believes that any single person is a permanently intractable obstacle in the government, so it makes the most sense to assume that was not the motivation.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Saturday July 06, 2013 @01:06AM (#5998023)
As long as you say that understanding what FISC actually is, compared to a bona fide Article III court, I'm happy to agree to disagree. Incidentally: I like Ezra Klein a lot; Ezra Klein, Felix Salmon, and Matthew Yglesias are my daily reads.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by ScottBurson on Friday July 05, 2013 @07:04PM (#5997140)
> The article is inadvertently letting Congress off the hook.

Perhaps Klein could have briefly reminded readers that the "A" in "FISA" stands for "Act" -- that is, of Congress -- but this is a blog post in the Washington Post. I can't fault Klein too much for overlooking that not all readers might share that bit of context.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by anigbrowl on Friday July 05, 2013 @07:18PM (#5997169)
You (and Klein) are wrong. Congress could shut down the FISC apparatus tomorrow and Roberts could do nothing about it (in fact, he'd probably give a sigh of relief, as he doesn't seem to particularly enjoy the administrative aspects of his job). Congress does not have that power with regard to any of CJ Roberts' Article III privileges.

This is a fundamentally important point. Talking about the probability that Congress will do this or that is irrelevant.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by lisper on Friday July 05, 2013 @08:13PM (#5997308)
> Congress could shut down the FISC apparatus tomorrow

Actually, they couldn't. To shut down FISC they would have to pass a new law, which they could not do tomorrow because they are not in session tomorrow. And then the president would have to sign the law, or Congress would have to override his veto. Yes, it is possible to change the law, but it's not easy. Likewise, the Constitution could be amended to rescind Roberts's Article III privileges. So the situation is exactly analogous. But as you yourself point out, the probabilities that these things will happen are irrelevant. What matters is that until the changes are actually made (by whatever process is needed to make them) the situation is what it is. And the situation at the moment is that Roberts's appointments to the FISA court are not reviewable by anyone. So Klein is right and you are wrong. Deal with it.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by tptacek on Friday July 05, 2013 @08:18PM (#5997324)
The reason it's unlikely isn't that it's hard for Congress to change it; it's that Congress' constituents don't want them to. And that should give you pause about the prospect of some judge doing it for them, because nobody elects federal judges. We are not a nation ruled by philosopher kings.
Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by lisper on Friday July 05, 2013 @09:40PM (#5997566)
> Congress' constituents don't want them to

That is far from clear. But either way, it's irrelevant to the matter at hand. The fact is that you are wrong about Klein. Until you acknowledge that and retract your top-level claim, there's no point in discussing anything else. Life is too short.

Re:Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NS... by anigbrowl on Friday July 05, 2013 @08:36PM (#5997369)
To shut down FISC they would have to pass a new law, which they could not do tomorrow because they are not in session tomorrow.

/eyeroll

If we're going down that road, the President has the authority to convene either or both chambers of Congress at any time. This has happened 27 times.

Likewise, the Constitution could be amended to rescind Roberts's Article III privileges. So the situation is exactly analogous.

Of course they are not, because constitutional amendments have to be ratified by 2/3 of the states, while Acts of Congress don't.

What matters is that until the changes are actually made (by whatever process is needed to make them) the situation is what it is.

The situation is that Congress can take away Roberts' FISA powers any time it likes, unlike his Article III powers which could only be revoked by amendment. This is a fundamental difference that Klein completely ignored, and that's why he's wrong.