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Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by breck on Sunday June 23, 2013 @04:26PM (#5929272)
Push back more on the request?

The 4th amendment includes this part:

"particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

Describing what you want as " all e-mails " is exactly the type of description this part of the amendment is meant to prevent. It's way too broad.

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by jholman on Sunday June 23, 2013 @04:54PM (#5929409)
Google has a legal team whose full-time job is pushing back on these requests. At some point, they have to either obey the law, or go to prison themselves. Get off your high horse.

It feels like some people won't be satisfied unless Google says "well, our existence has many benefits, but it also makes it slightly easier for the government to spy on people, so we're closing up shop".

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by malandrew on Sunday June 23, 2013 @06:29PM (#5929822)
The warrant should detail the nature of the crime being investigated, the dates under which they believe a crime was committed and the range of dates that are reasonable to investigate based on the aforementioned facts.

That's reasonable. A blanket warrant impacting all emails since the beginning of time is not reasonable.

If the cant name a crime and give a date or dates then they shouldn't be asking for a warrant.

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by breck on Sunday June 23, 2013 @05:09PM (#5929476)
I think Google is doing a great job. I was offering a suggestion of one angle they could play.
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by throwaway10001 on Sunday June 23, 2013 @05:19PM (#5929510)
Google has a legal team whose full-time job is pushing back on these requests. At some point, they have to either obey the law, or go to prison themselves. Get off your high horse.

Google has a business model whose entire premise is to push the envelope on privacy and to collect as much as possible and hold it forever--to make a few extra pennies per user. Get off your high horse. Google (and FB) is /are a menace to us all, even if only because they gather so much private data about us.

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by mpyne on Sunday June 23, 2013 @08:55PM (#5930311)
How can they collect private data on you personally if you don't use their product?
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by rayiner on Sunday June 23, 2013 @06:15PM (#5929760)
> It's way too broad.

No way would that be considered an over-broad warrant. If, e.g., you suspected someone of financial fraud, it would be totally okay to get a warrant for the contents of all the filing cabinets in his office.

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by breck on Sunday June 23, 2013 @09:21PM (#5930417)
But I think "filing cabinets in the office" is a lot more specific. I think an equivalent would be "emails that contain the phrase X", or emails from these addresses, et cetera.
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by rayiner on Sunday June 23, 2013 @09:38PM (#5930482)
You think filing cabinets in the office is more specific than e-mails in an account?
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by thrownaway2424 on Sunday June 23, 2013 @04:31PM (#5929307)
There is a 10-bullet list of the particular things to be seized. How would you have made it more specific?
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by betterunix on Sunday June 23, 2013 @04:40PM (#5929352)
By not having such broad categories of things to be seized. It is not "specific" to seize "every email message he sent to anyone ever."
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by rayiner on Sunday June 23, 2013 @06:20PM (#5929782)
"betterunix's g-mail account" is plenty specific as a "place to be searched" and "e-mails" is plenty specific as "things to be seized." If you printed out every letter you've ever sent to someone and put it in a filing cabinet, it would be totally fair game for a warrant to get the contents of the filing cabinet. Or if you kept them on a hard drive, it would be totally fair game to get a warrant to get the hard drive.

In this case, the problem is not investigators overreaching the law. The problem is the amount of information consolidation modern technology enables and encourages.

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by betterunix on Sunday June 23, 2013 @06:36PM (#5929850)
"If you printed out every letter you've ever sent to someone and put it in a filing cabinet, it would be totally fair game for a warrant to get the contents of the filing cabinet"

Except that people do not typically do that, and it is reasonable to expect that a filing cabinet will contain only important or current documents. With GMail, you typically see personal messages that date back years, probably long before whatever crime the person is suspected of.

"The problem is the amount of information consolidation modern technology enables and encourages."

I think for once, we might agree. The relevant laws were written with a very different model of communication in mind.

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by Zigurd on Monday June 24, 2013 @12:13PM (#5933856)
How is "everything in the computer" different from "everything in the house?" Or are we now writing search warrants for "everything in the house?"
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by rayiner on Monday June 24, 2013 @03:00PM (#5934926)
Because a computer is a small self-contained thing that you can often fit in a bag? That's my point about information consolidation: the law is rooted in the physical (and necessarily so). You can wax philosophical about "virtual spaces" but at the end of the day a hard drive is a small physical object that is treated the same as any other small physical object.
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by Zigurd on Monday June 24, 2013 @05:18PM (#5935754)
You are evading the question: "Everything in the house" is obviously not specific enough. And here is where the evasion comes in: The problem is not the size of the container. Does a search warrant even ask you to describe the container? No. It asks you to describe the thing to be seized.

If H&R Block had Whitey Bulger's tax returns, would the warrant be required to describe those documents, or, would all of the small, baggable disk drives at their data center be subject to seizure?

Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by breck on Sunday June 23, 2013 @04:51PM (#5929397)
Exactly. "All emails" negates all bullet points. It's like asking for 9 specific items in a real world warrant, and then point #10 is "and your whole house and everything in it".
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by rayiner on Sunday June 23, 2013 @06:17PM (#5929769)
No, it's like "all documents in the office" which is fair game for a warrant. You think warrants require you to specifically mention every document?
Re:Google handed over years of e-mails belonging to WikiLeak... by thrownaway2424 on Sunday June 23, 2013 @05:10PM (#5929480)
I'm sure that will be of great interest if this person is ever charged with a crime. Until then, he has neither venue nor standing to challenge the warrant.

Imperfect warrants are a problem for the state at trial. Outside of trial, any old warrant will do.