News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by jlgreco on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @05:58PM (#5902328)
The Iranians were in a hot war at the time. A particularly brutal one. The people they were fighting had US support, who were providing: "Several billion dollars worth of economic aid; the sale of dual-use technology and non-U.S. origin weaponry; military intelligence; Special Operations training; direct involvement in warfare"
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by mpyne on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @07:11PM (#5902638)
The U.S. was in a hot war as well.

The shootdown of Iran Air 655 occurred during Operation Earnest Will, which involved the convoying of Kuwaiti (not Iraqi) oil tankers through the Persian Gulf to protect them from Iranian interdiction contrary to the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea regarding international waters and navigation rights.

Throughout this operation, Iran conducted mining efforts within the Persian Gulf. On the very first convoy an oil tanker was hit by an Iranian mine (luckily causing no injuries or loss of life). Later in the convoy operation U.S. special operating forces managed to capture an Iranian minelayer in the act of laying mines.

Later during this same operation, USS Samuel B. Roberts (FFG-58) was struck by an Iranian mine (proven based on serial numbers matching mines noted from the aforementioned spec-ops mission).

The mine caused damage which is normally fatal to warships of that size (the keel cracked and both engines were knocked from their mounts). She had to limp out of the minefield on auxiliary thrusters while the crew fought to contain damage and save the ship. 10 sailors were injured badly enough to require evacuation. 4 of those were badly burned and had to be sent all the way back to the U.S. to recuperate.

As a result of that, the U.S. Navy launched a short surface operation against Iranian platforms (Operation Praying Mantis) on April 18, 1988.

Meanwhile, about a year before Iran Air 655, on May 17, 1987, an Iraqi (U.S. ally??) Air Force jet had attacked the frigate USS Stark (FFG-31) with two Exocet missile in the Persian Gulf. Though the damage to the ship itself was not as severe, 37 sailors died and 21 more were injured.

In the context of all of that, on July 3, 1988, USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655. To be clear the ship captain was clearly in the wrong. Even with the 'fog of war' and the problems of having to use instruments to fight instead of one's own eyes he had enough indications to know he wasn't under attack.

But the shootdown itself didn't come out of thin air, and the U.S. was brought into a tense situation in the lead-up to the events of that day (though admittedly, they didn't do much to de-escalate either once it started happening).

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by vacri on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @04:13AM (#5904315)
That's not 'hot war', that's all 'gunboat diplomacy'. If it is a war, it's still a cold war. Militarising coastal waters to apply pressure. If the US was in a 'hot war' with Iran, there would have been more than a planeload of civilians as casualties - a 'hot war' is one were there's been a declaration of war and there's an armed conflict going on.

People died all the time on the interface between the First and Second Worlds, yet it was still termed a 'cold war' for the decades it existed.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by greedo on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @01:12PM (#5906788)
Enforcing maritime law isn't "militarising coastal waters." Trying to defend what the Iranians were doing as innocent is disingenuous.

And a hot war is one where bullets, missiles, shells are flying around. Just because there's no declaration of war doesn't mean it's not a war. Let's look at a little history here:

Korean War - Hmm, no declaration of war Vietnam War - Same Grenada - Same Panama - Same Desert Shield/Storm - hmm, no declaration here either OIF - Same OEF - Same

So the pattern is pretty clear, that declarations of war aren't worth the paper they're printed on. And try telling the combatants on both sides in the above conflicts that they weren't in a hot war.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by vacri on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @06:26PM (#5908843)
Speaking of disingenuous, where did I defend what the Iranians did? Where did I say that gunboat diplomacy was only a US thing?

And a hot war is one where bullets, missiles, shells are flying around So the Cold War was a hot war then? You can't fix a poor definition with a poorer definition.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by jlgreco on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @07:35PM (#5902744)
Even more reason to not be surprised that the Iranians shot at the US.
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by mpyne on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @07:54PM (#5902816)
Just so I'm clear, you're saying that a country preventing their own merchant ships from being attacked in order to maintain free trade on international waters in accordance with international law justifies blowing up one of that country's warships?
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by jlgreco on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @08:15PM (#5902883)
I'm saying that war is shit, but if you are in one then don't expect not to get shot at. There is no sense acting indignant about it. They were not shot at out of the blue, there was an existing conflict.

In this discussion it hardly matters who was on the right side of the overall conflict, however, in this specific engagement: the Iranians shooting at the Americans was reasonable and should not have surprised anybody; the Americans shooting back was reasonable and should not have surprised anybody. The only real problem was the American shooting at the airliner.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by ensignavenger on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @11:59AM (#5906293)
Keep in mind too that the Americans did not know it was a commercial airliner. It certainly was not a deliberate targeting of a civilian plane.
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by jacquesm on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @12:41PM (#5906590)
Actually, according to the WP article sources they did.
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by mpyne on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @03:31PM (#5907671)
There were Americans on nearby warships who knew (and arguably, should have provided forceful backup; but the other warships had far inferior radars and thought that Vincennes knew something they didn't). The watchstanders on Vincennes did not know. They should have known, but there was no "bright line" that makes a given radar target look automatically civilian or automatically military on the display. Watchstanders and the CO have to make that determination based on a confluence of factors, including IFF transponder frequency, flight plan, whether the craft is ascending/descending, etc. The CO came to the conclusion early that the indications he had were of an attacking aircraft. Part of that was based on a determination that the aircraft was descending in a hostile attack pattern. It wasn't, and the AEGIS radar showed as much. But when the life-or-death decision point for your ship rests on whether you see a '-' or a '+' next to a altitude change rate it's not astonishing when a watchstander makes the wrong call.

The Vincennes watchstanders tried hailing the aircraft two times, but didn't get a response. But even that didn't really help resolve the issue; was it an hostile aircraft maintaining radio silence or a confused civilian airliner? They used a frequency a civilian airliner could have picked up, but it turns out there were several other frequencies the airliner could have been monitoring as well, and besides... how was the Iran Air 655 pilot to know Vincennes was ever referring to them?

Vincennes was having to make a hail to the effect of "unidentified aircraft south of Bandar abbas with speed 350 knots, heading 210, you are on a hostile course and this warship will take defensive measures". What civilian airliner pilot would think that applied to them (though Vincennes quoted speed-over-ground and not the airspeed the pilot would have been looking at).

So there were tons of 'Final Destination'-esque problems that occurred here, but foremost of all was that the watchteam (CO and CIC watchstanders both) determined early based on a single misread indication that they were being attacked, and the evidence they had available to them after that could easily be construed to support that determination.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @01:29PM (#5906890)
The US administration agreed to reflag Kuwaiti tankers as US tankers as a dodge around US law that prohibited the US from convoying foreign merchant ships, as part of administration's broad policy of support for Iraq's unprovoked and extended war of aggression aimed specifically at seizing particular Iranian territory, mainly Persian Gulf ports. (Why protect Kuwaiti tankers as part of supporting Iraq's war? Because the reason Kuwaiti tankers were being targetted was because Kuwait was spending billions of dollars supporting the war; Iran was attacking the flow of money supporting Iraq's war effort.)

The entire operation (and several other operations close in time in the Persian Gulf) was the US administration choosing to directly intervene in support of Iraq in the war with Iran; the limited scope of the intervention was a matter of sell it, above all to US domestic audiences, as something other than the direct support for Iraq that it was.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by mpyne on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @03:42PM (#5907714)
I understand that there were way more geopolitical considerations than just "Iran bad Kuwait good". Whatever other problems Iran might have with Kuwait, didn't justify closing off the whole Persian Gulf.

And if the U.S. wanted to re-enact a modern form of the old "Cash and Carry" plan they imposed on the U.K. before Pearl Harbor, then they were within their rights to do so as well as long as they obeyed UNCLOS.

The additional U.S. direct intervention on the side of Iraq (e.g. weapons, training) has been pretty conclusively demonstrated to have been stupid and unhelpful with regard to geopolitical stability in the Middle East (several times over, by now).

But in any event, if Iran had really wanted to blockade Kuwait then they should have declared war and blockaded Kuwait (it doesn't exactly have a wide coastline), instead of mining international waters. At least then they would have the moral high ground should the U.S. still have decided to intervene.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by hga on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @06:12PM (#5902395)
As I said, "nothing good can come from it". Wikipedia says in reference to Sadam's threat to wage chemical warfare and underlining it by gassing a number of Kurdish villages "and some larger towns", and this shoot down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War#Iran_acce...):

"The lack of international sympathy disturbed the Iranian leadership, and they came to the conclusion that the United States was on the verge of waging a full-scale war against them, and that Iraq was on the verge of unleashing its entire chemical arsenal upon their major cities."

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by jlgreco on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @06:23PM (#5902453)
They were well within their right to shoot at the Americans, who were only in the area to provide aid for Saddam, who was gassing Kurds and threatening to gas Tehran. Expecting the Iranians not so shoot back was foolish, and shooting down that airliner in retaliation was plainly barbaric.

The aftermath of the incident has no bearing on whether the Iranian reaction to the intrusion was rational or justified. The order of events does not support such a line of reasoning. What you are basically saying is that nobody should ever shoot at Americans no matter where they are or what they are doing, no matter the current military or political circumstance. Ridiculous.

Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by vilhelm_s on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @10:37AM (#5905787)
To be clear, the shooting down of the airliner was a mistake (it was misinterpreted as an attacking F-14). It was not done in retaliation to anything.
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by paradoja on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @01:14PM (#5906798)
It is not clear at all. That version is heavily disputed, and reflects only official US Government's view.
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by hga on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @06:35PM (#5902504)
Just to make it completely clear (I hope), I'm saying a country should not shoot at entities of another county it is not in a hot war with.
Re:Bruce Schneier: Has U.S. started an Internet war? by jlgreco on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @07:00PM (#5902603)
And I think that is a fine principle, but an unreasonable expectation.