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Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by philwelch on Saturday June 15, 2013 @08:55PM (#5886892)
How can you rule out:

1. Google is lying. 2. Prism (or the backend thereof) is genuinely unknown to most Google employees. Those few employees who do know of it are lying. The others (i.e. legal) are ignorant because they have no need to know, and because it provides plausible deniability. 3. There exist NSA agents capable of passing a Google interview and installing backdoors, perhaps with the collusion of other agents.

Companies the size of Google are, in software terms, Borg cubes of interacting systems. No one comprehends the whole thing, and some degree of secrecy between services is normal. Who would notice if, say, Gmail traffic was being replicated onto NSA-controlled hardware? A small part of a small part of the Gmail team. No one else would likely notice even if it was done in an obvious way.

Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by tptacek on Saturday June 15, 2013 @09:06PM (#5886929)
Is it possible that through some elaborate conspiracy with specific unidentified Google employees unknown to Larry Page or Google's General Counsel that NSA has obtained access to the servers that operate Google Mail? Yes.

Is it plausible that having gained that access, their use of it is so routine that it has an official name ("PRISM") and a logo and appears in slide decks targeted at NSA analysts and is used a program whose existence is known outside NSA (there are DOD manuals that refer to the same PRISM program)? No. That is not plausible.

Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by philwelch on Sunday June 16, 2013 @12:28AM (#5887455)
What about specific unidentified Google employees known to Larry Page, albeit not Google's General Counsel? (In the paraphrased, immortal words of Al Gore: of course it's illegal, that's why it's a covert operation.)

We don't know the intended audience of the slides, either, though with a data source as rich as all of Gmail, presumably there'd be tons of analysts capable of accessing it or else it would just be a waste.

Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by tptacek on Sunday June 16, 2013 @01:52AM (#5887603)
I don't follow. Larry Page and Google's General Counsel jointly signed the denial.
Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by philwelch on Sunday June 16, 2013 @02:14AM (#5887638)
Hypothesis: Page was lying; the General Counsel was in the dark for plausible deniability and genuinely believes to this day that PRISM doesn't exist, at least not in a way that involves Google.

I don't see this hypothesis as being anywhere outside the wheelhouse of the NSA. Even outright infiltration (i.e. the hypothesis that not even Page is in the know) is, well, kind of the point of intelligence services, but it's not necessary.

Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by tptacek on Sunday June 16, 2013 @02:24AM (#5887660)
This is just innuendo.
Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by philwelch on Sunday June 16, 2013 @04:41AM (#5887879)
You're overcommitted to the hypothesis that Google is completely uninvolved based on their own denials which carry close to zero informational value.
Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by mpyne on Sunday June 16, 2013 @11:33AM (#5888748)
Given that your hypothesis is rather outlandish even by the NSA's own slides (which explicitly mention 702 compliance) and would require more Google employees than Page to know and willingly lie about it, I don't see why it should take priority over a hypothesis that actually meets all the Occam wickets.
Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by LoganCale on Saturday June 15, 2013 @09:20PM (#5886973)
Note that I am not taking sides in this argument in this particular reply, but the PRISM referred to in the leaked manuals appears to be an entirely separate program, for managing responses to emergency events.
Re:NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants by tptacek on Saturday June 15, 2013 @09:38PM (#5887030)
I understood there to be references to both; to other DOD programs called "PRISM", and to programs called "PRISM" that probably are the NSA program. Other DoD agencies are clients of NSA.