Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by saalweachter on Monday June 10, 2013 @10:03AM (#5854386)

You know, you are on to something there.

What we really have in this country is literally a "right to bear arms". You have no right to fire or wield or use your arms.

I can think of no situation where you could fire upon an agent of the government that would not end badly for you, unless there was a total dissolution of Federal and probably State government. Even acting in self defense, even against a corrupt agent of the government, I can't imagine it ending any way but badly for you. You can't shoot the government a little to make a small change. Either you completely overthrow the government, so that there is no one left to hang you, or you go to jail in the best case, and be executed lawfully or gunned down in the street in the worst case.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by tibbon on Monday June 10, 2013 @10:29AM (#5854585)

I'm not up on my history as much as I should be, but I think some of the influence there conceptually is from the "right to overthrow the government", and the idea that many of the new governments at the time were only lasting a short period of time and then would need revised.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by bmelton on Monday June 10, 2013 @11:20AM (#5854990)

Well, in Texas (and other states), there's Castle Doctrine, that would have allowed him the right to fire, wield and use his arms with lethal intent if in fact those FBI agents didn't have a warrant, which provides some protection that the agents would at least have to prove to a judge that there was reasonable cause to arrest him.

Of course, they likely would have had a warrant, and if not, might possibly have gotten one from the FISA court (I'm not sure on the process there) which pretty much always issues a warrant, so it still wouldn't have been great for him.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by saalweachter on Monday June 10, 2013 @11:28AM (#5855032)

I do believe there are sets of laws and circumstances which logically or even ethically permit it, but I think in the end The Man wins.

In this case, I suspect there are federal laws against shooting FBI agents, which would trump state law.

Even if there weren't, well, suspects aren't always taken alive to be vindicated in court.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by bmelton on Monday June 10, 2013 @11:33AM (#5855071)

I don't believe there are any laws against shooting federal agents actually, though I could well be wrong, but in the absence of a verifiable warrant, there's no guarantee that they are federal agents. Even if they are federal agents, that doesn't give them any right to enter your home without your consent, absent a warrant.

I don't otherwise disagree with the synopsis you've put forth, I'm just saying that our right to bear doesn't prohibit us from ever firing in the event that there is clear justification. People storming your home is such a justification, no matter what uniforms they're wearing.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by saalweachter on Monday June 10, 2013 @12:40PM (#5855492)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1114

Fun fact: Timothy McVeigh was convicted of the murder of 8 federal agents who were in the Federal Building. They didn't bother to charge him with the other 160 counts of murder, because those weren't federal crimes.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by bmelton on Monday June 10, 2013 @12:45PM (#5855510)

Thanks for the correction, however it should also be noted that it uses the term 'murder', which by definition is different from homicide in that murder is unlawful, where homicide is not necessarily.

If I kill someone attacking me, I have committed homicide, but not necessarily murder. If I kill someone ala McVeigh, I have murdered them.

Since it is a federal charge, it's very likely that the 'intent' would be determined in a federal court, which does exist outside of state jurisdiction and is bound to uphold federal laws, but it isn't quite open and shut.

Still, your point stands, which is to say that he's almost certainly screwed.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Has the US become the type of nation from which you have ... by saalweachter on Monday June 10, 2013 @01:52PM (#5855899)

Yeah, the definition of "murder" is tricky. Reading http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1111 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder it looks like the sticking point is "malice aforethought". I'm not remotely close enough to a lawyer, to be able to guess which way the court would fall on that in this hypothetical situation.

[ Parent | on HN ]