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Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by dylangs1030 on Saturday June 08, 2013 @03:06AM (#5844181)
I will go on record as standing with Google and its denials, even if that's an unpopular position right now.

Here are a few facts:

1. The New York Times article did not specifically cite PRISM, it only cited FISA, which was already largely known by the public. It is true that this could be because PRISM is allegedly justified under Section 702 of FISA, but they are not the same thing.[1] It would be most appropriate to say that one encompasses the other, but they have two separate protocols, and as of right now, only one was discussed by the Times.

2. Let's say the NYTimes article is about PRISM, and they simply didn't mention that acronym for whatever reason. If that is the case, the information leaked therein also makes it very clear that it is entirely possible for CEOs, chief officers, and other high ranking employees to be completely in the dark about it. The only people allowed to know about the requests for information are those who receive and analyze the requests. That's not a conspiracy theory - it's leaked right along with the rest of the information.[2] Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page, Dave Drummond, Yonaton Zunger, etc. might literally not know the extent of how far the government reaches in their companies.

3. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect the leaders of these named companies to stand together in righteous technological might against The Man. Nothing practical would be achieved by having Mark Zuckerberg or Larry Page penalized for what they said on record, in public against a government agency. Nothing would benefit the American people by having them put on trial or their companies sued for violating national security. The NSA designed a Catch-22 gag order that prevents those involved from even acknowledging the existence of government involvement or letter agencies, let alone detailing specific protocols or history.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Stop getting distracted from the real problem here. The threat to privacy is the NSA. The threat is our government(s). We have the power to fight it if we consolidate our focus with precision. We may feel wronged by the apparent lies of public figures but they had no choice, if they were even in the wrong. We cannot know what pressures were put upon them at this point in time.

Lay down your pitchforks and direct your anger and incredulity to your government, who ordered this - the public entity that made this legal and hidden and nearly impossible to speak out against. That is your real enemy.

[1]: http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/7/4407782/phone-spying-and-pr...

[2]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/technology/tech-companies-...

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by SudoNick on Saturday June 08, 2013 @07:35AM (#5844594)
The threat is from government and collaborators. Some collaborators are probably lobbying to have government surveillance programs expanded because they think it will benefit their bottom line. Other collaborators may believe that privacy of citizens is of no or little importance and willingly cooperate. Companies with business models that debase privacy could be suspected of this. Then there are companies who genuinely may not want to cooperate at all and who may even care about privacy. Companies with a squeaky clean history on the privacy front.

Unfortunately, it is important that all collaborators be punished. Especially since the government is trying to expand its surveillance programs to include a wider range of companies, and per reports many companies are reluctant to sign up out of fear of public backlash. There needs to be that public backlash. There needs to be negative consequences for those companies that participate.

That being said, I'd like to clarify that I don't think all forms of cooperation with government investigations are inappropriate. Very narrow and specific requests in response to explicit subpoenas being an example of something I think must be tolerated. On the other hand, blanket requests and requests for data access that would enable government to independently explore the records of millions of American citizens is something that can't be tolerated. Efforts must be made to change such policies at the same time that efforts are made to penalize the companies that collaborate and make it possible.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by gasull on Saturday June 08, 2013 @03:14AM (#5844192)
> Lay down your pitchforks and direct your anger and incredulity to your government, who ordered this

It's also important to raise the awareness that our data isn't safe in Google's hands.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by smtddr on Saturday June 08, 2013 @03:29AM (#5844228)
If you're going to say your data not safe in Google's hands, then your data just isn't safe on the internet which I think is a needlessly extreme position to take. The OP is right, just focus your dissatisfaction on the government. It's not about is your data safe with Google; it's about your data safe with the government. If you can't trust your government, it doesn't matter where/who/what has your data. Yesterday it was Yahoo & myspace, today Google & Facebook, tomorrow who knows... the only constant is an abusive government. Fix that, then it won't matter what currently trendy company has your data.
Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by fianchetto on Saturday June 08, 2013 @03:55AM (#5844278)
> If you're going to say your data not safe in Google's hands, then your data just isn't safe on the internet which I think is a needlessly extreme position to take.

Google isn't the internet.

Dump gmail, FB and other spy holes. Use public key crypto. Take your own network back.

Or continue on as usual. Our choice.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by smtddr on Saturday June 08, 2013 @04:05AM (#5844293)
So basically communicating online only with people that will use pubkey-crypto? I think that's a needless extreme. Also, what happens when everyone does that and the government makes crypto illegal? You're back to the original problem, the abusive government. That being said, I did just suggest encryption in an earlier post today... but that was before I started getting the feeling this problem goes deeper into the government than just a small gov-agency & some cellphone companies.
Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by gasull on Saturday June 08, 2013 @01:42PM (#5845581)
The problem with PGP is that friction is in every message you send. For every email you have to make the decision about encrypting the message and entering your passphrase. It's a hassle.

The reason I recommend Bitmessage is because after overcoming the friction of installing it, it's frictionless. You don't have to remember passphrases or anything. It also has advantages over PGP-encrypted email like deniability, built-in spam minimization, broadcast messages (like Twitter), chan boards, etc.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by onedev on Saturday June 08, 2013 @04:28AM (#5844329)
No I'm not going to do any of that.

My mother doesn't even know what the words "public key crypto" mean.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by kllrnohj on Saturday June 08, 2013 @03:47AM (#5844264)
If you believe this "PRISM" thing exists at all how the media is painting it, your data isn't safe in ANYONE'S hands. Google has way better lawyers to fight that stuff (and clearly DO fight this stuff - see the National Security Letters thing) than most other cloud companies.
Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by danenania on Saturday June 08, 2013 @08:59AM (#5844767)
"Nothing practical would be achieved by having Mark Zuckerberg or Larry Page penalized for what they said on record, in public against a government agency. Nothing would benefit the American people by having them put on trial or their companies sued for violating national security."

Your post is well written and presents an interesting viewpoint, but this is completely wrong. A handfull of the most powerful and wealthiest companies in the world standing up to the US government wouldn't achieve anything? What? It would make a HUGE difference. If the people involved won't stand up for what's right due to personal fear, that's understandable. Most people wouldn't. But they shouldn't pretend it's for any other reason. To do so is a huge insult to those who do have enough courage to do the right thing in the face of huge risk--much greater risk than is faced by these frightened SV millionaires and billionaires.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by einhverfr on Saturday June 08, 2013 @10:31AM (#5844954)
I am not actually going to stand with them on their denials. I understand what you are saying but I think you are missing something simple, namely that the easier, cheaper, and more efficient you make the information sharing process, the more requests you are going to get. What Google is being accused of here is collaborating on making this fast and efficient.

As it takes less resources to obtain information you can bet that there will be more efforts to obtain information. If you want to avoid much of this, you just require hand-delivered documents from accredited agents to accredited agents, manual review of these documents (and perhaps shipping them between corporate offices for such review). Get a review for being thorough, pushing back, and not hurrying. Make sure it takes time, that lawyers go through them one by one, and send to another lawyer (preferably somewhere else) to cross-check. stall for as long as you can on every order you can. You will get fewer.

Google is essentially claiming transparency, while ensuring that the transparency report is increasingly meaningless because it is easier and easier to get info in ways that won't get into it.

Within Google's denials is more or less a confirmation that what the NYT is saying is true.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by moultano on Saturday June 08, 2013 @10:43AM (#5844983)
Cnet is confirming that they are telling the truth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57588337-38/no-evidence-of...;
Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by mtgx on Saturday June 08, 2013 @03:58AM (#5844282)
They also have an obligation to their users. I hope they realize that I will be actively be on the look out for alternative services from Europe in the future.

This means Google (and the other American companies, too) has a problem of loyalty now, and I'd say a huge one. It's only a matter of time before such services arrive, and I'd like to believe people will start quitting it in droves.

I see it much like with the ISP situation in US. People don't really have a choice of ISP's, but they've grown to hate them so much over the years, that as soon as a decent competitor is around, they'll be switching. I believe (and hope) the same will happen to the American companies, including Google - at least until this mess is fixed, and the Patriot Act repealed.

So I do believe the Patriot Act, and the uncovering of what it can really be done with it has caused irreparable damage to US companies. I received a Chrome update yesterday, and now I have to wonder "is it just a coincidence? Or is it to remove some tracking technology they had it until now, so people don't find out about it when all the spotlights are on them now?".

Could be a genuine question, or maybe I'm just too paranoid, but the point is these unveilings made me feel this way (the Google "privacy issues" never bothered me before, and I was actually waiting for Google Glass - not anymore obviously), and I don't think anything Google and others say in the future will make me feel otherwise, until there are concrete steps done, wide in the open, to stop this kind of surveillance.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by magicalist on Saturday June 08, 2013 @05:32AM (#5844432)
Meanwhile you still pay your taxes and you vote for your sitting senator. Where's your responsibility here? Maybe you'll hate them so much over the years and as soon as a decent competitor is around, you'll vote for that guy?

These are big companies and putting pressure on them like this is both practical (just pick your data-hosting European country carefully, though) and could create economic leverage on Congress, but I think it's kind of bullshit when these transparency reports mention receiving between "0-999" National Security Letters, and Eric Schmidt is telling people about the PATRIOT Act requiring them to hand over information, and now you're saying "what?? they're handing over data because of an order that doesn't require probable cause established in front of a judge?"

I don't want to come off as too harsh here, but, yes, this is what we've been banging the drum on for years about. Jewel v NSA[1] is very nearly 5 years old now, and the executive branch is trying to drag it out even longer. Welcome to the fight; let's try to make our country livable instead of dreaming about jumping ship but doing nothing in the meantime.

[1] https://www.eff.org/cases/jewel

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by aw3c2 on Saturday June 08, 2013 @05:37AM (#5844441)
Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by danso on Saturday June 08, 2013 @08:02AM (#5844646)
I'm glad you wrote this post. I've been echoing it for so long that I'm annoying myself....but if people spent half as much time inspecting the NYT's piece, they would see that it clearly describes then kind of FISA procedure that Google has already admitted and that the "directly tapping" incidents that the NYT alludes to are not attributed to Google or FB or any actual company.

But the key thing is to not waste energy on the side issue...the grab for power should always be scrutinized, and it is not an issue as simple as "Vote in a new president and live like Richard Stallman" (though neither of those ideas are bad, either)

Call me jaded...but remember how angry and energized everyone was over Aaron Swartz's death? Just six months later and we hear nary a peep about it, not even a boilerplate response to the White House petition. This is the way it is with so many issues involving the law, people get bored or conflate the wrong things...a few months later, no one really remembers.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by einhverfr on Saturday June 08, 2013 @09:57AM (#5844868)
This is generally true, but what is an issue from where I stand is that companies which are building their reputation on pushing back against too much surveillance are cooperating with the government to make such requests cheaper, faster, and easer, which is to say ensuring we will see more of them.

The responsible thing to do is to require a physical document, hand delivered to an appropriate corporate agent or officer, with a manual, hard copy review process.

Re:“The government does not have access to Google servers” by lisptime on Saturday June 08, 2013 @10:33AM (#5844956)