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Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by tptacek on Friday June 07, 2013 @11:51PM (#5843682)
During the Cold War it wasn't simply the subtextual goal of the US to expand its influence in strategic regions but its outright goal; in fact, our problems in West Asia stem in large part from the Cold War and its idiotic attendant strategy of propping up despots to avoid Soviet communism.

The Iraq War was a terrible blunder, but it pales in comparison to Vietnam, which inflicted horrible costs on the US but even worse costs on the Vietnamese and Cambodian people, whose civilian populations were carpet bombed with napalm.

No plan survives first contact with the enemy. Speaking of which, if you're really ready to engage with the 20th Century, imagine what would have happened had the Soviets "won". Read about the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

It will be another 100 years, at least, until we're no longer feeling the immediate aftershocks of colonialism.

Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by sillysaurus on Friday June 07, 2013 @11:55PM (#5843699)
Why are we comparing blunders with even larger blunders? It sounds like you're saying "this isn't that bad." Why, though? It's still very bad, and should probably be opposed, not justified. Can you help me get into your head a bit?
Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by tptacek on Friday June 07, 2013 @11:57PM (#5843714)
Say the NSA really is reading all of our emails, and that that's happening because of 9/11. That would be an enormous setback for civil liberties. But it wouldn't be indicative of a terminal condition; our country has weathered worse, and what's important (over the long term) is that our compass points towards liberty and that we keep struggling to go where it points us.
Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by jamesjporter on Saturday June 08, 2013 @12:40AM (#5843828)
Thank you for bringing some sanity to the discussion. "our country has weathered worse" is true and an excellent way of putting all this shit in perspective.
Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by waterlesscloud on Friday June 07, 2013 @11:58PM (#5843718)
I believe he's saying the America you believe to be lost never existed.
Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by tptacek on Friday June 07, 2013 @11:59PM (#5843724)
Thank you.
Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by sillysaurus on Saturday June 08, 2013 @12:04AM (#5843742)
If it never existed, then it can't be true that our country's moral compass has been aligned toward civil liberties, unless we still haven't achieved that ideal after two centuries of struggle.

I don't have a specific position that I'm defending. I'm trying to learn some more historical perspective, and to understand your political philosophy in general.

Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by tptacek on Saturday June 08, 2013 @12:08AM (#5843756)
60 years is the blink of an eye in world historical terms. An eyeblink. 60 years ago, the color of your skin determined where on the bus you had to sit.

In that contest, 20 years is the single beat of a heart. 20 years ago, the media was entirely controlled by a handful of corporations, and you had no means whatsoever of telling an audience as large as the one you have now that you think America died on 9/11.

Say you want to make the NSA drama especially bad for Obama, and assert that the worst of their snooping is just a couple years old. A couple years. Just a few neurons have fired in that interval. Maybe wait for a few more before we rush to judgement at a world historical scale.

Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by enraged_camel on Saturday June 08, 2013 @05:31AM (#5844426)
>>60 years is the blink of an eye in world historical terms.

In world historical terms, yes. But not in US historical terms, which is what matters here.

Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by danso on Saturday June 08, 2013 @12:04AM (#5843743)
tptacek is arguing that we need to take a longview in addressing political and societal issues. You're arguing that nope, America is irrevocably fucked like it's never been fucked before since your existence on Earth.

You may actually be right, depending on when you were born. If you were born in the 80s, then things weren't too bad (unless you were a homosexual or other estranged group, of course). I think tptacek is reasonable to counter that, a decade or two earlier, things were noticeably worse than they were now. That's not to say that he's justifying what's going on now with "well, this is fine, because Vietnam was way worse".

You know who else thinks that the current period of time is absolutely the scariest, most dangerous time in American history? The kind of politicians who enact the laws that you are opposing.

Re:Tech companies, bristling, concede to government surveill... by einhverfr on Saturday June 08, 2013 @12:38AM (#5843824)
To add to your points on Iraq, I have always maintained we should never have gone. I opposed the war at its inception and hoped we could pull back before we became responsible for the wellbeing of the Iraqi people.

This being said one thing that really differentiated Iraq from Vietnam was that when backed into a corner, Bush had one of his few shining moments as President when he tied the troop surge to political reforms aimed at a more inclusive Iraqi government. One of the problems in Vietnam was that we were so used to propping up despots we were unwilling to confront Diem on issues of governance. At least Bush learned from that lesson albeit late and with his back to the wall (and I think further it is pretty damning that Bush's finest moment was one that merely managed to contain a mess he created).