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Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by LandoCalrissian on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @02:49PM (#5781844)
"Tesla can’t increase demand by dropping the price very much. "

That's a pretty big leap on the Authors part, one that isn't really justified from facts or information. We know basically nothing about Tesla's plans for their cheaper models or what they have/will do to reduce the cost.

It's really bizarre to me how much certain groups are just itching for Tesla to fail.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by DanBC on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @03:07PM (#5781998)
> It's really bizarre to me how much certain groups are just itching for Tesla to fail.

Patrick Michaels is a climate change denialist. He himself has estimated that about 40% of his funding comes from the oil companies. He has been criticised for manipulating the data of other scientists - not trivial mistakes or oversights, but deliberate serious manipulations. (Here's just one example where a colleague almost accuses him of fraud (http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/2005/Crichton_20050927.pdf)

> One of the skeptics, Pat Michaels, has taken the graph from our 1988 paper with simulated global temperatures for scenarios A, B and C, erased the results for scenarios B and C, and shown only the curve for scenario A in public presentations, pretending that it was my prediction for climate change. Is this treading close to scientific fraud?

He's part of the Cato Institute, who have publically said they disagree with the scientific consensus on climate change.

Disappointing to see this worthless tripe on HN, and to see it getting any votes.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by gwright on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @04:19PM (#5782472)
> … is a climate change denialist

It would be nice if Hacker News could avoid the worst abuses of language that happens in public debate.

1) Climate has always and will always be 'changing'. It is a dynamic, not static, system.

2) No one denies that climate changes so 'climate change denialists' is the empty set.

3) To dispute the theory of 'catastrophic anthropogenic global warming' is not the same as denying 'warming', 'global warming' or even 'anthropogenic global warming'. It is only when you add in the 'catastrophic' part (which comes from the magnitude of the predicted positive feedbacks in global climate models) that you enter into the realm of serious disputes.

4) There is considerable evidence that there has been no statistically significant global warming for the last 20 years (anthropogenic or not) and even more evidence that the magnitude of the positive feedback included in the 'catastrophic anthropogenic global warming' models is much smaller than previously assumed.

5) If the climate models only match actual temperatures by lowering the postive feedbacks in the models then they are probably no longer predicting catastrophic warming.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by marshray on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @05:49PM (#5783067)
I think #2 makes you a 'climate change denialist denialist'.

Also 6) If client change is assumed to be occurring, catastrophic, and anthropogenic, what can and should we even do about it? Are the cures worse than the disease?

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by duncan_bayne on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @10:38PM (#5784255)
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

It's disappointing to see someone avoid addressing every single one of the issues raised in the original article, and instead focusing on attacking the author.

Would you care to address any of the points he made in the original article?

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by skrebbel on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @12:39AM (#5784617)
Why is it disappointing? There's plenty of people here who address the original point. Knowing more about the author and his motives is useful information.
Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by duncan_bayne on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @01:59AM (#5784844)
It wouldn't have been disappointing had DanBC posted it as an FYI - in the sense of "be careful to check this guy's claims; he has falsified data in the past."

But what he wrote was: "Disappointing to see this worthless tripe on HN, and to see it getting any votes."

That is an ad-hominem attack, and disappointing to see on HN.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by DanBC on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @11:21AM (#5786760)
I don't want people to be careful when checking that guy's claims.

I want people to not waste their time bothering to check that guy's claims.

Scientists gather data and form an opinion.

This guy has an opinion before he sees any data; he's paid at least 40% of his funding for having that opinion; and then manipulates data to fit that opinion. He misrepresents other people's work and other people's opinions.

If he had lied once or twice then perhaps there's some useful information to be had by carefully checking what he's saying. But the pattern is so strong that people can safely ignore him. Just as we ignore the time-cube guy, or people who use phrases like quantum touch healing.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by duncan_bayne on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @06:58PM (#5789803)
"I want people to not waste their time bothering to check that guy's claims."

That is pretty much the definition of an ad-hominem attack.

Your criticisms of his approach are valid, but also apply to a good number of climatologists whose income is more dependent upon pro-AGW funding this his is dependent upon oil company funding. Glass houses, stones, etc.

FWIW, my position is that correlation between human activity and climate change has (finally) been solidly established, but:

- our models lack any real predictive ability w.r.t. future climate, except to say "interesting stuff will happen."

- catastrophic climate change happens regardless of human input

Given the above two points I'm unconvinced that there's any AGW-based argument for legislation. Argument based on atmospheric pollution harming human life? Sure.

Instead, we should be focusing on growing our technological and academic capacity towards climate engineering. Regardless of what AGW brings, at some point in our history, we will need to tweak the climate to survive.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by DanBC on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @11:14AM (#5786711)
>Would you care to address any of the points he made in the original article?

No. He is paid to produce FUD. He is repeating a well known pattern of disruption that was pioneered by tobacco companies.

He has a track record for lying, for manipulating other people's research, for misrepresenting other people's views.

I'm not going to waste any time with people who are so intellectually dishonest and who are being paid to waste my time; people who are paid to spread misinformation and confusion.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by beatpanda on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @02:59PM (#5781929)
Cato's funding comes from a fortune made on fossil fuels. They have a job to do.
Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by bhb916 on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @03:22PM (#5782103)
I'm not a Cato Foundation supporter, but I can't seem to find a single article on their website advocating fossil fuel subsidies. To the contrary, I found four articles articulating opposition (one even congratulated the President!) to them.

Am I missing something?

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by uvdiv on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @03:48PM (#5782266)
The criticism is that they similarly oppose subsidies to oil competitors (such as electric cars). And more significantly, regulation or taxes on CO2.
Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by beat on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @03:22PM (#5782105)
Tesla doesn't WANT to increase demand right now. That means scaling up manufacturing, which is extremely expensive and still kind of politically shaky. MUCH better for them to put a ceiling on demand with high prices, and simultaneously increase their profit margin. More money in the bank for later expansion, less debt, and less commitment to potentially flawed early designs.

The Tesla Roadster was ridiculous, but the cash it generated and the lessons it taught them gave them the opportunity to scale with the S sedan. Now the S sedan will give them that same cash/lessons combination to expand with whatever comes next.

This is no different than scaling a software startup, if you think about it.

Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by ryguytilidie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @03:07PM (#5782005)
It's really not that bizarre at all when you consider how much money is in the traditional auto industry. People see "their" industry and lifestyle being threatened and just freak out and suspend all logic.
Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by justina1 on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @02:56PM (#5781896)
Might be those that jumped on the short TSLA bandwagon after Fisker blew up.
Re:If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money by LandoCalrissian on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @03:01PM (#5781947)
Fisker was never really building their own stuff though. They were just bolting together a bunch of parts from different suppliers. Tesla has real technology, especially in the battery department that they are already beginning to licence to other auto manufactures.