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Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Monday May 27, 2013 @09:34AM (#5774572)
Hi there, I'm the CEO of Freelancer.com. I'd be interested to know what problem you ran into?
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by Dove on Monday May 27, 2013 @12:32PM (#5775226)
I was a pretty regular worker on vWorker -- in the top several hundred in terms of income -- and I've been very unhappy with the transition to freelancer. The major issues I've encountered are:

* Extreme difficulty communicating with clients on the site during the bidding process. If there's a way to discuss terms and details on a prospective project, I haven't found it yet.

* Getting paid, in the US, is difficult, expensive, slow, and impossible to automate. (It was none of those things on vWorker).

* The vibe of the site is incompatible with high quality, professional contracting. If I send clients to your site, they don't hear about cost and schedule and deliverables. They get asked to follow you on twitter so they can level up and win a free t-shirt.

* No sub-accounts. I can't give an administrative assistant or subcontractor partial access to my account; it's either cut and paste or give out the master password.

* The whole setup seems geared toward people with a very different business philosophy than me -- hundreds of bids per month, dozens of skills on your profile, tens of client relationships. And if I work hard, I could get more of all of those things! That actively drives me away. I have dozens of skills, but I only want to list one or two. I want to make one or two bids per month. I want to work with one client at a time. Overall, the system says to me, "This is a place for spammy contractors to take tiny jobs," not, "This is a place for serious professionals to do quality work."

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by lotharbot on Monday May 27, 2013 @02:35PM (#5775889)
[context: I am Dove's husband and acted as her administrative assistant on vWorker]

Really, what it comes down to from my perspective is that freelancer is not geared toward the type of freelancing we're trying to do: making a living as professionals in a first-world country.

As professionals, we have reason to want to grant limited account access to a secretary, accountant, or sub-contractor. This feature existed on vWorker, but not Freelancer.

As professionals, we want to be rated and visible based on delivering quality work on time and on budget and making our clients happy. On vWorker, ranking/visibility was based entirely on revenue x client rating, with a bonus "top worker" designation for never missing a deadline or having a bad rating. On Freelancer, we level up by following you on social media, get badges for logging in every day for a year, and generally get ranked according to tangential criteria. It's distracting, and appears unprofessional to clients who are being asked to "level up" and "earn badges" themselves when all they want to do is hire us.

As professionals, we don't bid until we've already come to terms with the client. On vWorker, we'd regularly have dozens of messages with clients establishing the details of a project, discussing timelines, etc. and then we'd put in a bid with that full understanding. Freelancer seems geared toward submitting a large number of bids without having ever really discussed terms -- the sort of thing that might work for "transcribe a 10 minute audio clip", but not for projects measured in months and costing $x0,000 to complete.

As professionals, we want to pay our $50 monthly fee and our 2% per-contract cut, use the site to connect with clients with real large-scale contracts, and get paid on a reasonable timescale. Trying to do that on freelancer is an exercise in frustration.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:36AM (#5778286)
Hi Dove/lotharbot,

Thanks for your feedback. Some of the vWorker freelancers I agree were exceptional - this is why they are now at the top of the leaderboard in many categories. vWorker users earnings are, on a whole, up about 50% post acquisition from what they were before. If you send me an email I can look into your accounts and see if I can make a recommendation for you, if you like (my email is easy to guess @freelancer.com).

Re/ sub-accounts, we are looking at this, the actual use on vWorker was very low (less than ~500 users out of 2.5m). This is why we haven't implemented yet. We are looking at it, however.

You are mixing up the Freelancer leveling system with reputation. Reputation is completely distinct. Reputation is simply volume (dollar) weighted ratings on a per category basis. Thus the highest rated, most paid freelancers are at the top of reputation for a given skill. The gamification system is completely distinct and has no influence on the bid list, this is purely like a frequently flyer program in giving back perks to users who are good on the site (as distinct to those good at work).

Yes, we are a much bigger marketplace than vWorker. So there are more bidders, but also substantially more projects. We do have projects that are well over $250,000 on an ongoing basis.

No platform charges 2%. vWorker charged 15% flat. You can get down to 3% on Freelancer, the lowest commission in the industry for $49.95.

If you get in contact with me, I will see how I can help.

Regards Matt

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by lotharbot on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @10:33AM (#5780262)
> "You are mixing up the Freelancer leveling system with reputation."

This sort of confusion suggests the leveling system is far more prominent, and therefore distracting, than it needs to be.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by octopus on Monday May 27, 2013 @12:53PM (#5775332)
I'm a not a big Freelancer fan, as you can see from my other comment. However, I think Freelancer does a better job at sorting the low spam bidders than ever did vWorker. On vWorker I've seen $1 - $3 bids on certain projects.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by octopus on Monday May 27, 2013 @11:54AM (#5775068)
A few problems with Freelancer from a buyer perspective:

* If you post a project on something like C++, Android, iOS or web design you get about 10 generic bids in the first minute. I suspect some coders use bots to bid on certain categories. This should be strictly prohibited.

* Not sure how you can stop the coders to bid so low, when a guy bids $30 for 2 - 3 days of work the quality of his work can't be that great. Maybe enforcing some minimum bid limit ? I know this is a hard problem to solve.

* Another problem that seems to keep the prices and quality down: coders that take a project and repost it with a much lower price.

* A buyer should be forced to describe what he needs in the project description. Generic projects like Easy work, it can be done by an expert in a few hours. Details after you bid. should also be prohibited. These kind of projects keep the prices and the quality of the work down for everyone.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:40AM (#5778295)
Hi Octopus

Thanks for the feedback

1) Yes we are trying to crack down on the bid spam. However the marketplace is very liquid you will also almost always find that there is actually someone at the other end, so when you get 10 bids in 60 seconds if you start to chat there is a human at the other end. We get almost 1 million bids per month now. No other marketplace on the Internet comes close to liquidity (about 950k/mo now). This is great for finding people quickly and getting the right price for your project.

2) Well 5 billion people on this planet live on $8 day or less, I think you can't say just because someone is willing to work for 2-3 days for $30 they are automatically "bad".

3) Labour arbitrage is something we are looking at. It usually does not result in lower quality, quite the contrary, because the guys doing the arbitrage (flipping projects) need to retain a high reputation score or they will blow their accounts up and the business model will stop working. Right now they are acting as quality and customer service managers so they actually enhance the result for the end user.

4) Yes I absolutely agree, and we are looking into how this can be done better.

Regards Matt

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by kawsper on Monday May 27, 2013 @09:59AM (#5774654)
I recently recieved a lot of messages from you. http://i.imgur.com/6kpLIHl.png

91 emails in the course of 13 days is not acceptable, and it just suddenly started. I figured out how to disable it, but you might want to look into it.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Monday May 27, 2013 @10:05AM (#5774673)
You were subscribed to new project notifications. We did fix a bug where only a fraction of new projects were being sent out to freelancers- we had a lot of complaints that we weren't notifying freelancers of all matching opportunities. We're working on both some settings to adjust how many you receive and smarter targeting.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by 23andwalnut on Monday May 27, 2013 @10:32AM (#5774747)
Without having experienced the issue myself, it seems like an easy solution would be to send out a daily digest containing all new projects. Or allow users to select how often they would like to receive new project emails with options like: 1. As they are posted 2. Every x hours 3. Once per day.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:41AM (#5778298)
He was complaining about the daily digests :)

We have thousands of projects per day posted. We need probably better fine grained control over the timing of these emails, I can tell you that if we send less emails we get complaints, if we send more we get complaints! We have to perhaps let the user decide the frequency.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by qarioz on Monday May 27, 2013 @10:38AM (#5774765)
Actually it's very useful, it's just receiving 6 daily mail is a little bit too much.

The special notification on the other hand is very useful, it should be sent more.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:42AM (#5778301)
Agree as I said about we will look at fine grained control over how many digests a user wants to receive. Some people do not browse the site at all but want INSTANT emails when a new project comes on. Some people want 1 email a day.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Monday May 27, 2013 @10:06AM (#5774677)
But thanks for the feedback!
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by rajjalan on Monday May 27, 2013 @10:31AM (#5774744)
Why gamification if I am only posting jobs? It might make sense to people who are bidding for projects, but it is just too many unwanted features for posting a project.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by Dove on Monday May 27, 2013 @12:13PM (#5775143)
It doesn't make sense for people who are bidding for projects, either -- at least, it doesn't make sense for me. It's a childish system, completely out of tune with how I want to present myself professionally. I don't want to Like You On Facebook or Follow You On Twitter, I don't want to Level Up For More Bids, I certainly don't want to bid on 200 projects a month, and I certainly, CERTAINLY don't want to see my clients spammed with similar requests.

I really liked vWorker, but I actively avoid freelancer, and the gamification is the biggest reason.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:48AM (#5778317)
This system is only exposed to you personally, it is not exposed to employers and has no effect on your on-site rating whatsoever (which we call reputation, a metric)
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by Dove on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:28PM (#5783811)
I appreciate that! It wasn't clear to me how public my own level was.

My bad reaction is actually from a conversation I had with a couple clients I had sent to the site -- they saw their own "level", I guess, and were rather put off by the whole thing. Not that I blame them; I find it pretty tacky, too. Hence I've been avoiding bringing new clients to the site.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Monday May 27, 2013 @10:55AM (#5774820)
Well you can always ignore it? There are something things you might like to earn with the credits, for example the phone number for the head of support, a chat with me over skype with a cup of tea, or a t-shirt? It's not like you have to do anything extra.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by jiggy2011 on Monday May 27, 2013 @01:14PM (#5775462)
I think the issue is that it changes the "feel" of the place and therefor the type of people likely to be attracted it.

It kind of says "we are for the sort of people who will jump through hoops to get a free article of clothing"

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by lotharbot on Monday May 27, 2013 @05:01PM (#5776564)
I wish I could ignore it, but the problem is that it's something my clients have to see too, and it's very prominent. They want to hire me, I want to deliver quality software to them, but in between us is "level up to earn a free T-shirt".

Perks and rewards are OK, but the prominence the XP/Badge/level system is given presents a very unprofessional image to potential clients. It's a distraction, a sideshow that's given center stage. I'd love to do enough professional-grade work on freelancer to earn a quick chat/consult with you (or even something like a free t-shirt), but I don't want the site inundating me and my clients with bullshit that doesn't add to either of our bottom lines. Our business relationship is not a game, but Freelancer surrounds it with excessive of game terminology and game mechanics, which gives off an air of "this place isn't for serious developers".

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @04:46AM (#5785290)
Clients do not see anything related to your internal freelancer rewards level.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by lotharbot on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @11:34AM (#5786837)
But they see their own level.

We had a client with us on vWorker. When we all transitioned to Freelancer, we thought "great -- lower fees and an easier to use website!" Their first login, they saw all the XP-level stuff and bailed. They simply weren't willing to conduct business on a website that seemed to treat everything like a game.

When you're running a serious business, perception matters. As you can see from this HN thread, some people who made the transition have a negative perception of the confusing, distracting sideshow of the XP system. It wouldn't be so bad if it was phrased in a more neutral way, like "Freelancer rewards". But giving something phrased in game terminology so much prominence is a big turnoff for some of us.

Of course, I don't have access to your internal metrics or split tests. Maybe the terminology works out as a net positive; maybe the people who like it engage enough more to make up for those who left because of it. I can't speak for your entire client base, only my little corner of it. And my little corner of it would be doing more business through Freelancer if the gamey stuff wasn't so prominently featured.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Wednesday May 29, 2013 @04:47AM (#5785291)
The only badges they see are exam badges with your score.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by rajjalan on Monday May 27, 2013 @11:05AM (#5774861)
Well, we ignore it by using freelancer less now. I just posted thinking you were interested in feedback :)
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by ximeng on Monday May 27, 2013 @12:25PM (#5775198)
Also didn't see the point in the gamification, interface is already complicated enough when putting up projects that I almost gave up a couple of times. And echo the earlier comment about excess emails - getting 50emails after having a discussion on the chat system is not a sensible default. Did get a good job done tho gave up on finding rails guys and went php.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by rickdale on Monday May 27, 2013 @12:06PM (#5775115)
Good on your for being here and looking for suggestions.

Never used your service, but I did use 99designs to design and build a site recently. And I can tell you that as soon as I got my design, I told the designer to email me and then I payed him through paypal for the design and for the website work. I was out some money to 99designs, but I was happier that random Indian dude got most of the money.

I think I have an account with freelancer.com, but the site comes off as so bloated to me that you need to be a regular to really navigate through it.

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:49AM (#5778320)
I don't think it's that difficult to use, but I certainly welcome any feedback once you try it.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by harrjj on Monday May 27, 2013 @12:47PM (#5775298)
I'm another ex-vworker person. I had spent over $20k in the year before it was acquired by Freelancer and haven't done a single job since (moved to Elance). It started out with Freelancer failing to move my account. Once I went through a fairly painful process to get it migrated, I found that the tools to search for freelancers were terrible. I think they've improved a little, but to start with, you could only search by keyword and you'd get like 1000 results with no way to filter them. As of now, I'm happy with Elance and have no reason to move back.
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:50AM (#5778323)
Hi Harrjj, if you have any specific feedback on features or issues I'm happy to look at them.

Regards Matt

Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by brianbreslin on Monday May 27, 2013 @12:11PM (#5775135)
I used to be a semi-regular purchaser of small projects on vworker (rentacoder), and didn't like the transition to freelancer. On freelancer I had mixed success with the quality, and also the timeliness of deliverables. I also didn't like the method for escrow/disbursement of payments. I do wish you could more clearly label payments and structures (vworker was super ugly, but much clearer in this respect).
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by mattbarrie on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @01:51AM (#5778327)
Hi Brian, what do you mean specifically?
Re:Ask HN: What Freelancer site do you recommend? by braveheart1723 on Monday May 27, 2013 @10:19AM (#5774710)
I also wish the experience of using freelancer was much less spammy with a much higher focus on quality projects.