News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by dschobel on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:02AM (#575607)
I've never met someone who used any version of windows because they thought it was a reasonable way to interface with your computer, always for application compatibility.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by halo on Thursday April 23, 2009 @12:05PM (#575887)
I do. I like Windows a lot. I'm completely platform agnostic and I've used all 3 major platforms at various times but I always come back to Windows.

I think there's a quiet majority of people out there who are perfectly happy with Windows but they don't tend to talk about it, whereas you do tend to get a lot of outspoken Mac and Linux users who are willing to both champion their platform as well as bash Windows at any given opportunity.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by mseebach on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:05PM (#576017)
> I think there's a quiet majority of people out there who are perfectly happy with Windows

I think there's a quiet majority out there who's never tried anything but Windows, and think of their computer as nothing more than a tool, completely oblivious to such abstractions as operating systems.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by RossM on Thursday April 23, 2009 @03:18PM (#576303)
I've used Windows pretty much all my life, but started out with Linux (Ubuntu, briefly openSUSe and back to Ubuntu again) a couple of months back.

I don't see many problems with Windows apart from it doesn't like moving User documents/data to another drive. The resulting clutter from that is all down to me though. I haven't had an complaints with Vista.

I'm warming more to Ubuntu now (although I only use it as a development platform on a laptop, I'd probably prefer it even more on the desktop) but I really don't see the "horrors" in Windows.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by krschultz on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:00AM (#577052)
Blue screen of death at an inoppertune moment - then what? If the equivalent happens in Linux you put in a live CD and get that all important presentation off of it and go on your way. Not to mention that I can install Ubuntu freshly in under and hour, windows takes several times that by the time you install 4 drivers and reboot after each one, install a half dozen apps that aren't included by default etc.

That was pretty much what sold me, I was 30 something hours into a Solidworks project that forced me to use Windows, and the machine BSOD me at 4am the day it was due. If you rely on a machine you have to have faith it will work during crunch time.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by thm on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:10AM (#577062)
You can put a Linux Live CD in a Windows computer and still get at your data, and I haven't seen Windows crash that often recently. I'm using Mac and sometimes Linux and have seen Mac OS crash more often that Windows.

I feel more comfortable in Mac OS, though. I've used Ubuntu a few years back and prefer that over Windows as well.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by krschultz on Friday April 24, 2009 @03:50PM (#578098)
Agreed, thats what I did, but at the end of the day now I have my unfinished project on a flash drive and no functioning computer to fix it - not all that useful unless you have another Windows machine with Solidworks installed ready to go - and at a few thousand bucks a seat not many people do. I don't think Windows crashes any more frequently than Linux but it is more catastrophic I feel.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jodrellblank on Friday April 24, 2009 @06:42AM (#577280)
Why did it BSOD?
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by raquo on Friday April 24, 2009 @07:41AM (#577325)
I don't think there is anything noobish or wrong in thinking of your computer as just a tool (not that you said that directly, but it could be inferenced). What is it, in the end? A tool for communication, development, research, whatever.

Some people just resist any kind of change - they're used to Windows, they aren't going to try anything else, because they think (and they might be right in theory) that they don't need anything else.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by access_denied on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:11PM (#576034)
I think there's a big majority of computer users, quietly suffering under Windows and simply having no idea that there even exists an alternative.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by derwiki on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:57PM (#576154)
I installed Ubuntu on a laptop I gave to my father a few weeks ago, and he's been using it exclusively. I don't think he can tell the difference between Ubuntu and Windows.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by dinkumthinkum on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:31PM (#576731)
You know, I'm not one of those weirdos that think desktop applications are going away. But I'd say most people who keep up with software development believe that's the case. <rant>I think that would be pretty bad if the best we'll ever be able to do is Javascript.</rant> Anyway, IF most apps people are using are Web based and compatible with Firefox or a Flash version supported in Ubuntu ... it seems less and less like there would be much point in paying for, using, and dealing with Windows.

I think most seniors can just about already switch fine to Ubuntu.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by ido on Friday April 24, 2009 @04:23AM (#577175)
Or Java.

Applets - they don't suck as badly anymore!

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jodrellblank on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:57PM (#576676)
I suffer every time I'm faced with Yet Another *nix Package Manager, another mess of /usr /usr/local /opt /var inconsistencies as well as every time I have to remote to a Windows machine and can't use SSH.

There is an alternative, but it's not all sunshine and green grass either side.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by nailer on Friday April 24, 2009 @11:50PM (#578567)
/var is pretty consistently used for variable files on all Linux distros. Solaris and other proprietary Unix puts all kinds of other shit there.

/opt and /usr/local are generally unpackaged guff.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by anigbrowl on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:59PM (#576163)
That's who all those 'Hi! I'm a Mac' commercials are aimed at, I guess. Those who are suffering in ignorance are not power-users-in-waiting.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by dinkumthinkum on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:36PM (#576738)
I thought those were just aimed at Hipsters and people who drink Pabst Blue Ribbon?
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by thras on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:18PM (#576715)
Suffering? It runs more than one application at once. You don't get viruses if you keep it up to date (unless you're an idiot). Copy and Paste works. There is nothing else out there that I need an OS to do for me. Everything else is in application land, where Mac and Linux sometimes fall flat.

I use Linux/Mac/Windows every day and have no trouble switching between them. If you are suffering under either Mac or Windows, it's your fault, not the OS's fault. If you're suffering under Linux, it's because you aren't enough of a moron to be a full time computer geek like me.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by dinkumthinkum on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:27PM (#576725)
I love the phrase "platform agnostic." Does that mean that one doesn't think it is possible to know whether there are platforms or not?
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by sant0sk1 on Thursday April 23, 2009 @03:01PM (#576277)
> I'm completely platform agnostic

That means you don't know anything about platforms (agnostic = no (a) knowledge (gnosis)).

I think you meant: indifferent =)

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by briansmith on Thursday April 23, 2009 @05:26PM (#576512)
"One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something"
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by Jem on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:29AM (#575661)
I've been using it for about 10 years. Application compatibility is only a small part of why I stick with it.

(I have tried multiple Linux distributions and OS X)

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by mattyb on Thursday April 23, 2009 @11:24AM (#575779)
What are your other reasons?
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by Jem on Thursday April 23, 2009 @11:31AM (#575788)
Many and varied, but most importantly because I actually like Windows.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jherdman on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:49PM (#576130)
Until today, I thought people like you were the unicorns of the geek world.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by Jem on Thursday April 23, 2009 @02:32PM (#576225)
That's probably one of the nicest things I've been called after admitting to liking Windows ;)
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by whacked_new on Thursday April 23, 2009 @02:04PM (#576171)
I use W/M/L on a daily basis. User of all, fanboy of none. No platform strikes a perfect balance for me.

Windows accelerators are pretty good; far and beyond OS X, in my non-expert experience with the Mac. I can't say much for Linux because it's pretty much all terminal :-)

Oh, the Mac mouse acceleration annoys me to no end.

More edits. Actually I can't say that about Linux. It's terminal because it complements my useless cmd.exe in a VM. The Linux accelerators are about the same I guess.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by mitko on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:17AM (#575635)
I do. On my work computer the OS is Ubuntu, and on my home computer it is windows 7. Personally, I like the Windows interface.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jherdman on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:47AM (#575695)
He's not just talking about the GUI though. He's talking about the actual usage of the machine. Personally I find Windows to be a complete pain to use. The console is weak, the way files are laid out on the system irritates me, and their politics as a whole stinks.

To each their own, but I concur with the GP.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by actf on Thursday April 23, 2009 @05:13PM (#576494)
This was true back in the days of cmd.exe, but with powershell the state of the windows command line is a different story.

Powershell is a huge step forward for Microsoft. I've been using it for about a year now and so far I'm very impressed. I'd even go so far as to say I prefer it to bash for certain tasks. The concept of passing objects around is, while strange at first, surprisingly intuitive and powerful.

If you're currently using a combination of windows + cygwin (as I was) I'd strongly suggest picking up a copy of "Powershell in Action" and giving powershell a shot for a couple of weeks. I'd be surprised if you don't switch to powershell.

I'll concede that overall powershell still has some significant obstacles to overcome before it's better than the linux command line, but just like when windows xp came out and people stopped making legitimate complaints about window's stability - with powershell released now, I think we'll start to see the same trend with people complaining about the windows command line - these complaints will no longer be legitimate.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by quoderat on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:56AM (#575720)
Exactly. Powershell is some improvement, but still a pale imitation.

Windows feels fragile, and often is when you try to do anything difficult. How to bring an ethernet adapter down then up with a script in Windows? Very difficult, WMI calls and such.

In Linux? A line (really, a few characters) of script. Just one of the differences I've run into recently.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jodrellblank on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:21PM (#576065)
Oh come on, WMI calls? you're just spreading FUD. Bring a network interface down:

  netsh interface set interface name="Local Area Connection" admin=disabled
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by quoderat on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:40PM (#576108)
Problem is, it doesn't work right:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/262265

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jodrellblank on Thursday April 23, 2009 @03:14PM (#576300)
And if I picked a Linux distro from 8 years ago I'd find some bugs in it too. Use the current version of Windows, it has fewer bugs.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by mace on Thursday April 23, 2009 @05:36PM (#576523)
>And if I picked a Linux distro from 8 years ago I'd find some bugs in it too. Use the current version of Windows, it has fewer bugs.

Perhaps that last bit should read "Use the current version of Windows, it has fewer known bugs."

As software gets larger and more complex the tendency is for more bugs to be introduced. Open Source mitigates this problem by allowing everyone to inspect and fix it.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by quoderat on Thursday April 23, 2009 @04:31PM (#576433)
Sorry, I have to use what the company provides, not what I wish the company provided. That's the real world.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jodrellblank on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:55PM (#576673)
By that logic, if your company provided Windows 3.1 you would go around saying Windows has no multiuser support.

Windows has an interface for doing what you asked. It had a bug / didn't work as described so they fixed it. Your company wont buy the fix, but that doesn't mean the fix doesn't exist. It means you can't take advantage of it, sure.

But saying Windows doesn't support it is deliberately misrepresenting Windows to make it look bad. It's spreading FUD, and it's wrong.

Plus, why did you bring WMI into this? You can't seem to do it with WMI: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa394595(VS.85).aspx "If you are not using DHCP, you cannot use WMI to disable a network connection". Were you just bringing WMI into it because it sounds scary and complicated and so would help shore up your FUD, or is there a way and this MSDN article is wrong?

(But you can do it by scripting the shell: http://mcpmag.com/columns/article.asp?EditorialsID=619 or by using Devcon to disable a hardware device from the command line: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272/en-us )

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by oomkiller on Friday April 24, 2009 @12:15AM (#576969)
You just said something monumental "Your company wont buy the fix, but that doesn't mean the fix doesn't exist. It means you can't take advantage of it, sure."

Thats one of the biggest things that Linux has going for it, if something breaks, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE FIX!

You can A. Fix it yourself; B. Get the latest source which probably has the fix (if it's a problem anyone else is having); or C. Filing a bug report and have the community fix it usually within a day, or even hours or minutes for really simple fixes.

Sure, Linux isn't for everyone, but for corporations and small businesses looking to save money, it looks better every day!

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by Splines on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:31AM (#577089)
FOSS has many benefits, but I had always considered the fact that you can "fix it yourself" not to be one. Do any of you fix random bugs in your desktop applications? (Firefox, for example).
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by oomkiller on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:34PM (#577956)
It might not be that real of an option for an average individual, but fixing it yourself in a large business could save you millions, depending on how big your IT Infrastructure is.

Think of this example. Company ABC has Windows XP deployed throughout their company. They need to upgrade some hardware, but the new hardware only has drivers for Windows 7 and Vista. Their only option (assuming a lot) is to upgrade to Windows 7 or Vista. Let's say that they have 1,500 desktops that need to be upgraded. I'm not aware of the details of VLK license prices, but let's say this will cost $150/workstation, including labor to install it. Roughly approximating, this comes out to at least $225,000. This doesn't even count the amount of money they will spend battling incompatible software and hardware issues, after the upgrade. -------------------------------- Company XYZ is using Linux Kernel 2.6.17, they have a problem with a piece of hardware that only has drivers that work with the 2.6.28 kernel. Company XYZ is a software development company, so they can just use their internal software developers to backport the driver from the 2.6.28 kernel to 2.6.17. They are already paying the developers a salary, so it won't cost them any more cash, maybe just a bit of productivity on other projects. This amounts to a huge savings over what Company ABC had to spend to fix a similar issue.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by vetinari on Friday April 24, 2009 @04:11AM (#577168)
You don't, unless it really bothers you for some reason.

Consider it 'real option' that is available with Linux but not with Windows or OSX.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by krschultz on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:06AM (#577057)
So wait, the thing I paid hundreds and hundreds of dollars for over the year won't give me the new fixes unless I fork over more money, but the free one will?

I can see not getting new features put into XP, but fixing BUGS should be free.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jodrellblank on Friday April 24, 2009 @05:28AM (#577228)
"other people should work unpaid for my benefit".

Bug fixing takes time, costs money. Linux + surroundings are unusual - the major projects are subsidised by our purchases from unrelated companies.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by sep332 on Friday April 24, 2009 @09:48AM (#577473)
WTF?

I didn't pay for bugs, I paid for software. If it's buggy and they don't want to support it, they should sell it at a discount. If they charge me for a complete product, but the product is buggy, they owe me more software.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by quoderat on Friday April 24, 2009 @05:20AM (#577217)
It's not FUD, and it's not wrong.

It took me hours of research to do a simple down/up in Windows -- something that took me 30 seconds of research in Linux.

And you yourself illustrate all the odd and very long things you have to do in Windows to do a simple down/up of the NIC, and to get it to work correctly.

While in Linux, I can just do "sudo ifdown eth0"

All in all, I prefer the 30 second way, versus the five hour way.

By your very use of evidence, you proved my point. Cool.

But didn't know about DevCon. Thanks.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by jodrellblank on Friday April 24, 2009 @06:41AM (#577278)
You're still claiming that it took you hours of research to do in windows without acknowledging that you're using an ancient version and that it is a one line command in current versions.

I could counter that in the scope of all possible operating systems there's no reason disabling a network adapter should be a simple thing and that you're picking on it because you considered it an easy thing in Linux' favour.

I could counter how much better it is to type "tracert" on windows than "traceroute" on linux, or that windows PPTP setup wizard blows Linux out of the water, or that there are uncountable things I've spent hours reaearching on bob platforms because they aren't as simple as I want them to be.

Or I could say "yoruban wax potato parachute"; I suspect any of the preceeding would result in further argument about how I'm proving your point.

I set out to counter your claim that x is too difficult in windows, but this further back and forth - it's not going anywhere, is it?

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by smanek on Thursday April 23, 2009 @01:35PM (#576099)
"sudo ifdown eth0"
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by nailer on Friday April 24, 2009 @05:52AM (#577241)
Is there a powershell cmdlet to replace netsh? I'm a *nix guy but actually think object pipelining is way better than scraping text.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by briansmith on Thursday April 23, 2009 @05:28PM (#576516)
In Windows it is very rare to ever have to do ifdown/ifup.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by krschultz on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:04AM (#577055)
In linux its very rare (never) to have to dig up a floppy drive whenever you need to install onto a motherboard using AHCI.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by mitko on Thursday April 23, 2009 @02:38PM (#576238)
Yes, I agree that the console is not the main thing that one gets Windows or Mac. My rule of thumb is: less command line use-> better. Ubuntu is pretty nice and I like their efforts to provide good human interface. On the other hand there whole bunch of software that runs only on Unix machines and not on Windows. I am irritated every time I need to ssh to a linux machine just to do something simple for a class or project, but I stick to Windows for my personal needs, because I find its interface best for me.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by whacked_new on Thursday April 23, 2009 @02:15PM (#576191)
For hybrid tablet users, Windows is the only way to go, and in that respect, I think the MS team did a pretty damn good job with the bundled functions in Vista.

And those who haven't used tablets before don't know what you're missing out on :-)

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by krschultz on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:07AM (#577059)
Why do you say that? We're all using Lenovo X61's with Ubuntu and its full featured.
Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by whacked_new on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:46AM (#577102)
I just finished Jaunty; the out-of-the-box support was remarkable, but it still falls short of Vista.

Vista is really a "tablet-aware" OS; when you pick up the pen, all the penabled functions come alive. When you hold down the secondary button, an indicator appears. And you have the screen rotation buttons, on screen keyboard, excellent handwriting recognition, and the journal app, which, despite it's lame (non-svg) format, does a decent job.

Jaunty was awesome up until the point of dual head. My video card is partly to blame, because on xorg I can't set two screens of different resolution, so my second monitor looks terrible, not to mention the logout required. In terms of tablet functions, you have to readjust the coordinates after you add the second monitor. On Vista, everything works with close to no intervention, and plugging in another monitor, everything still works as you expect.

That's not to say Jaunty wasn't hella impressive; it was. But I'm talking about built-in features, and in this respect Vista is still ahead. Anyhow, back to ubuntu on the VM.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by sho on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:56AM (#575717)
I wouldn't even say that. In most cases I'd say it's all about familiarity - both OS and application.

Perhaps a project manager needs MS Project, or an architect needs AutoCad or something but for the "teenage girl" demographic you would be hard pressed to find any particular application they absolutely needed that doesn't exist on Linux, or there isn't a ready counterpart (eg Adium instead of MSN Messenger). They're just not used to it and dislike anything unfamiliar, since computers are basically mystic black boxes anyway.

I think for many typical users it's simply a matter of preferring something they (mostly) know how to use.

Re:Ubuntu 9.04 released by netsp on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:14AM (#577069)
It's important to use would instead of could when thinking about these things. If the teenage girl doesn't know about Adium, it's the same no Adium.

It's now more likely that she would Google "MSN for linux" and be successful. That's relatively new. It still leaves her less likely to having the messenger. That likelihood is not 0. Not even on windows. There are plenty of 14 year old girls out there that don't have MSN Messenger on Windows even though they 'couldn't' overcome some sort of hurdle.

http://www.google.com/search?q=msn+for+linux&ie=utf-8...