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Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by m0th87 on Thursday May 09, 2013 @12:43AM (#5678877)
I don't see any comments here critiquing HFT simply because it's complicated. Rather, they seem related to whether it's actually a net-positive for society.
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by crdoconnor on Thursday May 09, 2013 @02:48AM (#5679130)
Every description of an HFT algo seems to fall into one of three categories:

* Acting on public information, milliseconds before anybody else - which helps everybody else about as much as insider trading does.

* Acting on trading information gleaned from "bid stuffing" (making and canceling orders really quickly) - which helps everybody else about as much as front running does.

* Detecting the presence of large trades about to go through or going through and capitalizing on the price movements they cause - i.e. imposing a tax others making large trades in the stock market.

In return, they flood the market with liquidity when it is least needed and withdraw it suddenly when it is (e.g. when prices are diving).

There's literally nothing to like about HFT.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by rgarcia on Thursday May 09, 2013 @03:01AM (#5679174)
Acting on public information, milliseconds before anybody else - which helps everybody else about as much as insider trading does.

"They can do it faster, therefore it must be illegal."

Acting on trading information gleaned from "bid stuffing" (making and canceling orders really quickly) - which helps everybody else about as much as front running does.

The only people that notice this behavior are...other people capable of doing this behavior. Why should it matter to you, the long-term investor, the trading tactics computers employ at the millisecond scale?

Detecting the presence of large trades about to go through or going through and capitalizing on the price movements they cause - i.e. imposing a tax others making large trades in the stock market

This happens in any market at any timescale. Everyone capitalizes on trends.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by CJefferson on Thursday May 09, 2013 @03:19AM (#5679213)
You are replying to the wrong points.The question is not are these things illegal, or does everyone do them.

question is, do they benefit the market as a whole? Traders do not have a right to perform HFT, and if it destabilise markets, we can take steps to reduce it (of course, there is then the issue of how to take steps without causing different problems)

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by dchichkov on Thursday May 09, 2013 @04:17AM (#5679346)
How else would you connect the exchanges? Or you don't want major exchanges to be connected, and say, if you dump a lot of stock at one exchange you don't want that information to propagate to other exchanges?

Benefits of having HFT traders, is that at the cost of having them around you can have fair and level ground. So if you come to one exchange to do a transaction, you don't have to think much about exchange intrinsics, like liquidity available there, fee structure, etc. Because these differences are being arbitraged away by HFT traders.

And again, what is the alternative? Exchanges that are connected by human traders making phone calls?

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by nhaehnle on Thursday May 09, 2013 @04:59AM (#5679436)
The real question is: Why are there multiple exchanges for the same papers to begin with?

In the case of stocks, for example, there has to be one ultimately authoritative copy of who owns which stocks anyway. So why not just do all the trading in the place where the authoritative copy is stored?

That would certainly seem to be more efficient from the perspective of minimizing the overall social cost.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by minimax on Thursday May 09, 2013 @10:36AM (#5680626)
Why are there multiple exchanges for the same papers to begin with?

Because it allows the exchanges to compete on features (latency, order types) and pricing (transaction fees, connectivity costs).

In the case of stocks, for example, there has to be one ultimately authoritative copy of who owns which stocks anyway. So why not just do all the trading in the place where the authoritative copy is stored?

For equities, trading and settlement are two separate steps. Trading occurs on the exchanges and, for U.S. equities, settlement is handled by the DTCC, the central counterparty for all U.S. equities trading. Handling all the specifics and details of what happens after a trade is executed is a massive industry.

For some products, trading does occur only on one exchange. Typically in futures trading, an exchange will develop a product (a contract) and that contract can only be traded on that exchange which also handles settlement.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by dchichkov on Thursday May 09, 2013 @05:25AM (#5679491)
> So why not just do all the trading in the place where the authoritative copy is stored? That would certainly seem to be more efficient from the perspective of minimizing the overall social cost.

And what if trading on that exchange will stop for a couple of days for technical reasons? What kind of problems can that create to stock of large company, that can be traded only on that exchange? Or what, if the whole exchange will go out of business? Or decide to charge arbitrary large trading fees?

Competition and diversity is generally a good thing. Tend to increase efficiency and minimize overall costs. That's valid for exchanges as well.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by aitkin on Thursday May 09, 2013 @09:16AM (#5680252)
The reason there are multiple exchanges is the same reason you can buy the same pair of shoes at 10 different places: it is competition.

Also, what is the social cost you are referring to? There are a lot of people here saying that HFT doesn't provide "social value". Does it somehow provide less social value than traders screaming at each other in the pits? Similar types of trading always existed, except now it's done by computers. For what it's worth, HFT provides well-paying jobs for a lot developers and ops people and often is very supportive of the engineering community.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by nhaehnle on Thursday May 09, 2013 @03:02PM (#5682314)
If you try to design a system of publicly traded companies from first principles, then the purpose of exchanges should be to provide a service to publicly traded companies. That service would be maintaining the authoritative record of who owns how many shares of the company.

Given this notion, competition is a good reason for the existence of multiple exchanges, because it means companies can change which exchanges their shares are traded over. However, it is not a good justification for the fact that trading of the same stock happens on multiple exchanges.

As for the social cost, you do realize that HFT does not come for free to society. At a minimum, society must somehow pay for those well-paying jobs to developers. And what do those developers give back to society? Before you answer, please consider whether you should distinguish between algorithmic trading and HFT. I do believe that algorithmic trading is useful to society (because it can do the job that screaming traders used to do better and cheaper), but the subset of HFT is not useful.

The only things anyone ever seems to be able to answer for HFT two-fold: one, that stock prices change faster, and two, that the spread is smaller. But one point one, nobody in the real economy cares about that, and to point two, the decrease in spread also doesn't matter to anybody in the real economy, because what you really care about there is the fluctuation of the share price over a larger timescale such as one full day. I have not seen any evidence that this fluctuation is affected by HFT in any way.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by aitkin on Monday May 13, 2013 @10:03AM (#5698673)
If you try to design a system of publicly traded companies from first principles, then the purpose of exchanges should be to provide a service to publicly traded companies. That service would be maintaining the authoritative record of who owns how many shares of the company.

I don't think there's any reason to think that exchanges' main purpose for existence is to provide service to publicly traded companies. Exchanges are just a store, and their purpose is to buy/sell stuff and make a profit. So, in that sense, having multiple exchanges selling the same stock is the same as having multiple bike stores selling the same bike...it's competition and there aren't many downsides to it.

As for the social cost, you do realize that HFT does not come for free to society. At a minimum, society must somehow pay for those well-paying jobs to developers. And what do those developers give back to society? Before you answer, please consider whether you should distinguish between algorithmic trading and HFT. I do believe that algorithmic trading is useful to society (because it can do the job that screaming traders used to do better and cheaper), but the subset of HFT is not useful.

Nothing comes for free to society. Funding a never-ending number of failing start-ups doesn't come free to society either. What is that giving back to society? Your implication is that HFT trading is somehow taking something from society that it doesn't deserve. What is it taking? Also, in terms of making distinctions: HFT is the superset and AT is the subset, not the other way around. All AT shops are HFT shops, but there are actually quite a few HFT shops that don't run algorithms and instead run based on inputs controlled by traders.

The only things anyone ever seems to be able to answer for HFT two-fold: one, that stock prices change faster, and two, that the spread is smaller. This is the crux of the whole thing. Why does anyone have to answer for HFT? This is implying that HFT is hurting people however you haven't not given any proof of this (besides that it doesn't add value). If anything, I think HFT's biggest crime (as someone else has mentioned) is that sucks some really smart people into working on problems of a rather limited scope.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by fixxer on Thursday May 09, 2013 @11:42AM (#5681022)
Would you prefer one exchange? Interesting things happen to commissions (the real enemy) when exchanges consolidate...
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by eru on Thursday May 09, 2013 @05:33AM (#5679525)
The exchange could trade in rounds, e.g. permanent auction mode, where orders get matched only ever minute.
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by dominicgs on Thursday May 09, 2013 @06:44AM (#5679697)
I believe that Taiwan (TSEC) does this, although I can't find a reference for it now.
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by eru on Saturday May 11, 2013 @10:17PM (#5692857)
I heard of that, too, but couldn't find a reference the last time I checked, either.
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by minimax on Thursday May 09, 2013 @10:45AM (#5680675)
This is actually how most of the European equities markets start and end the trading day. During the auction period, anyone can submit an order at a given size at price. When the auction ends, the exchange matches at the price that maximizes the number of shares traded. The rest of the trading day operates in what is referred to as a "continuous auction" where orders are matched continuously based on price/time priority.
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by kasey_junk on Thursday May 09, 2013 @10:00AM (#5680452)
What happens if there are more buy orders than sell at the same level (or vice versa)? Who gets priority on that fill?
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by kasey_junk on Thursday May 09, 2013 @10:36AM (#5680623)
To be clear, the way (most) exchanges solve this problem now is by what's called "queue" priority. The longer an order has been resting at a level the higher it's priority is.

This means that those who can respond faster can get into a price level sooner. Breaking this out to minute bounds doesn't mitigate their advantage in any way shape or form.

It is hard to know what the results of a change like this would be. I suspect it would make the markets much less stable as there would be less information to make accurate prices, causing huge variances on minute long ticks.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by tome on Thursday May 09, 2013 @10:25AM (#5680566)
This is not a problem that today's electronic markets avoid. They have to answer your question too!
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by eru on Saturday May 11, 2013 @10:24PM (#5692868)
Either first-come-first-serve, but that would give you some form of high-frequency again, or you just pro-rate them or fulfil them randomly.
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by fixxer on Thursday May 09, 2013 @11:40AM (#5681005)
Show me a market where such a restrictive view is mandated and I will show you a failed market. This notion that "trading should benefit the market" is complete and total nonsense propagated by people with no understanding of liquidity. Trading is adversarial by definition.

1987 was caused by portfolio insurance from major funds, not HFT (which didn't really exist then as it does now). HFT also didn't cause the mortgage crisis. That was long term consumer financing & Gov mortgage buyers & pension investors. HFT was definitely involved in the flash crash, but what were the long term implications of that? Zero. The most recent blip was caused my dissemination of bad news via a source that had been compromised. Again, not HFT.

Want to hate HFT (I do!)? Hate it because it isn't profitable (which is why I left in 2010) and because it still sucks up engineering talent like a black hole of despair.

These anti-HFT articles that occasionally come out are hilarious because the money that put HFT on the public radar simply isn't there anymore. Look at GETCO.

The question I have is why is the public so willing to accept disinformation? Residual banker hate?

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by skorgu on Thursday May 09, 2013 @08:49AM (#5680117)
> Detecting the presence of large trades about to go through or going through and capitalizing on the price movements they cause

Large trades move the market, full stop. That's a feature, not a bug. Moving a lot of size changes the market's estimate of the value of whatever you're moving. Splitting up large orders into smaller pieces is attempting to hide that information, why should that be a privileged operation?

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by tptacek on Thursday May 09, 2013 @11:17AM (#5680855)
I don't understand the comparison you're making between "bid stuffing" and frontrunning. Could you expand on that?
Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by harryh on Thursday May 09, 2013 @02:06PM (#5681977)
You forget that for every buyer there is also a seller.

If HFTs push the markets higher slightly faster because of new public info then while it might be bad for you if you are buying on that news, it's great for whoever already owns the stock and is the one selling to you.

The same applies to your 3rd point. It might be a tax on whoever initiated the large trade, but it's a benefit to whoever is on the other side of the trade. HFTs put new information into the market much faster than humans ever could making them more efficient. They're also doing it at a lower cost than human market makers ever did.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by adambratt on Friday May 10, 2013 @01:57PM (#5687675)
Would you rather have a person or a machine serve as the market maker?

If anything, HFTs have made it cheaper to trade. Because of the way exchanges are setup, the man in the middle will always be making a cut of the trades. Now though that cut is measured in pennies rather than what used to be often 1/2 dollar spreads.

Sure some of the predatory algorithmic trading serves no benefit to anyone, but you will always have people gaming/attacking the system if there's arbitrage potential.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by jdietrich on Thursday May 09, 2013 @08:18AM (#5679969)
All the critiques of HFT are a century old. When telegraphy was invented, it was feared that the ticker-tape would create devastating waves of speculation, by speeding up the markets beyond human comprehension.

When markets went over to computerised trading, it was argued that the human element of open-outcry trading was vital in preserving a culture of honesty and integrity.

Critiquing HFT is myopic, because it's based on a meaningless definition of "high frequency". HFTs are doing what traders have always done. There's a legitimate argument against speculation, but it's pointless to single out speculators that deal in the very short term. Singling out the newest technology is just a cheap shot, there's no fundamental difference between trading on a millisecond horizon or a minute or hour horizon.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by m0th87 on Thursday May 09, 2013 @09:02AM (#5680182)
Never heard anyone arguing HFT is terrible because the trading floor died either. These are straw men constructs designed to paint HFT critics as luddites.

I'm undecided about HFT's ability to provide liquidity in the market. There are certainly some drawbacks (e.g. you have to have high capitalization to afford HFT colocation), but there might be some tangible long-term benefits as well.

But I'm more concerned about how much of a waste it all is. Jeff Hammerbacher famously quipped that "the best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads," when referring to developers pounding at the doors of google's and facebook's recruiters. HFT is similarly unfortunate. Somewhat useful maybe, but overall a depressing use of brilliant minds.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by kasey_junk on Thursday May 09, 2013 @09:59AM (#5680448)
It is a common misconception that you have to have high capitalization to afford colocation. There are many firms providing shared colocation for monthly costs on the order of high end web hosting (though with the rise of cloud hosting web hosting is coming down rapidly in price).

As someone who works in HFT, you have hit the nail on the head about the real problem with it. It isn't front running, or instability, or unfair trading or any of that. It is simply that so many very smart people are working on it, instead of other more useful ventures. Of course, I feel the same way about data mining social networks.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by nailer on Thursday May 09, 2013 @10:30AM (#5680597)
> Never heard anyone arguing HFT is terrible because the trading floor died either.

It seemed fairly clear to me that the parent wasn't saying that at all. What he was pointing out was that discussion of, and concern about, faster access to information, decision making and execution causing volatility in the market isn't new. That's not a straw man at all.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by harryh on Thursday May 09, 2013 @02:25PM (#5682114)
There have always been market makers. The fact that we've replaced a whole lot of market makers with a smaller number of people programming computers to act as market makers means that we're now probably devoting less human resources to this job.

Also, as an aside, it's worth nothing that Hammerbacher only said that after making millions working at Facebook. I'm pretty sure that makes him an asshole.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by bdonlan on Thursday May 09, 2013 @11:43PM (#5684491)
There are ways of providing market makers without quite as much waste as the existing system of HFT. For example, instead of having the first trade order to arrive win, group them into generations of, say, one second, and execute them in a deterministic* order that does not depend on the time of submission (provided the trades arrived within the one-second window). You can still provide liquidity via automation, but you get rid of the latency arms race by providing a floor, below which improving reaction times doesn't win you anything.

* - For fairness, you could execute trades within a generation in a pseudorandom order determined by a random key, which is cryptographically committed to prior to the opening of trading, then reveal the key after the market closes to prove that you executed them in the correct order.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by harryh on Friday May 10, 2013 @02:51AM (#5684973)
There are some big problems with that plan. If I want to sell 100 shares, but I think that you also want to sell 100 shares but there is only 150 shares of demand then I'm incented to put in an order to sell 200 shares so that I capture 2/3rds of the demand.

But you're incented to do the same thing! So if you're going to put in an order for 200 maybe I should put in an order for 400? You can see where this is going...

People worry about HFT destabilizing the market. It seems to me that would be a much greater risk if you're incentivizing people to put in crazy orders that they don't actually want to do just to grab the percentage of demand that they desire.

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by Nimi on Friday May 10, 2013 @10:07AM (#5686226)
What happens if we aggregate both the supply and demand over a second (and don't allow price resolution smaller than a cent), then each seller gets to sell a portion of the demand proportional to the amount of this stock he owns?

This seems to disincentivize putting up for sale more than the seller wants to sell, and to also disincentivize "Sybil attacks" where the seller has an incentive to create false identities for himself. (Just a thought experiment, would be happy to know what I'm missing here :-)

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by OGC on Thursday May 09, 2013 @08:36AM (#5680041)
There sure is a fundamental difference between trading on a millisecond horizon or a minute or hour horizon. Otherwise it wouldn't happen:

One trader can act faster than another, and a millisecond(s) can be shaved of with the right location of your server (co-located near the exchange).

Re:This Is What One Half Second of High Speed Trading Looks ... by rgarcia on Thursday May 09, 2013 @02:50AM (#5679136)
I believe minimax is responding to the article, which is quite clearly making the classic "it's too complicated" critique of HFT.