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Re:Why SICP Matters by steveklabnik on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @10:30AM (#5632354)
s/Berkeley/most universities in the States/
Re:Why SICP Matters by saraid216 on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @05:47PM (#5635090)
It's also not just CS, though CS is the largest culprit because well... software is eating the world.

No one cares about getting an education. They just want a job.

Re:Why SICP Matters by coliveira on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @10:07PM (#5636055)
But there are still areas, lets say for example civil engineering, where you need to know about building materials, some physics and math to do your job. In CS, on the other hand, if you know how to put together a few web pages in Python and solve half a dozen brain teasers you may get a job in a very good company.
Re:Why SICP Matters by saraid216 on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @03:14AM (#5636869)
You're missing my point, which was about priority order.

Most people are going to college hoping to get a job. They're learning because they're told they have to learn, so they do a bad job learning. In a field like civil engineering, you can't graduate unless you pass classes that are simply unpassable without learning some stuff. (I have a friend going through aerodynamics right now and I'm hearing about everything he's learning.)

This is kind of a microcosmic version of what we're seeing in general: we see people as workers first and human beings second. The universities and the kids are following suit.

Re:Why SICP Matters by derefr on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @10:52AM (#5638284)
We created elementary schools. The children who attended them surpassed their peers. Employers began to require them as a signal of competence. Eventually, being such a "universal good", elementary education became a public service of the state.

Then we created secondary/"grammar" schools. The children who attended them surpassed their peers, who had only attended elementary school. Employers began to require a secondary-school education as a signal of competence. Eventually, being such a "universal good", secondary education became a public service of the state.

Then we created universities...

---

Although the inductive step is valid, there's a problem in the assumptions: we already had universities for thousands of years before the introduction of elementary or secondary education!

The traditional "liberal education" of The University, where the upper-class and the cunning go to cloister themselves with one-another and thus boost their mutual productivity in all sorts of status-signalling arts (sounds sort of like TED, doesn't it?) has come crashing head-first into the rising bar of minimum-expected human competence. Success in secondary school no longer tells you anything about a person's class or cunning, and that's forced employers to look for increasingly-lofty-and-meaningless trust-signals. So "everyone who's anyone" expects to go to university now, from the spoilt valley-girl to the farm bumpkin.

Perhaps, in the end, if we want to preserve the "usefulness" of university, we'll chop off the undergraduate portion of it and call that "tertiary school" or something. Everyone gets to go, it occurs at community colleges, probably most of the material comes from Khan Academy and the like. Then the rich and the cunning can go to The University after that.

Re:Why SICP Matters by saraid216 on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @02:52PM (#5640028)
> Although the inductive step is valid, there's a problem in the assumptions

I'm really not sure who you're addressing. No one is claiming these assumptions.

Re:Why SICP Matters by pekk on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @11:12AM (#5638410)
If you know those things... and are fresh out of Stanford, MIT, or Berkeley
Re:Why SICP Matters by kartturi on Thursday May 02, 2013 @09:15AM (#5644244)
> No one cares about getting an education. They just want a job.

Internal vs. external motivation? Maybe some day, when programming is no more needed for anything useful, it can really flourish as an art. Like painting, when its principal real-world reason-to-be was supplanted by photographing. E.g. I don't understand the obsession of quest to invent always _more and more_ optimal algorithms, because often the less optimal ones are more interesting and elegant.

Re:Why SICP Matters by obviouslygreen on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @11:48AM (#5632864)
Honest interest from someone who doesn't know: While I know this is happening at least some other places in the US (it happened to the one I went to and to at least one a friend attended), is it largely limited to this country, or are other countries seeing similar issues?
Re:Why SICP Matters by pimeys on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @12:14PM (#5633064)
My university (Helsinki University of Technology) changed the freshman course from SICP to Java in the beginning of the century. The reason was Nokia, who wanted Java programmers straight from the school.

Nowadays they're using Python.

I'm very disappointed I didn't have a chance to study that course. I read the book last year and did some exercises by my own. I never had so much fun with any CS book than I had with SICP.

Re:Why SICP Matters by dscrd on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @06:10AM (#5637181)
Nokia. That company just keeps giving. Some universities in Finland fell into that very same trap a second time and moved towards the holy triad of C#, .Net and Windows Phone. Utter shortsighted idiocy
Re:Why SICP Matters by kartturi on Thursday May 02, 2013 @09:03AM (#5644176)
It is the difference between encouraging plasticity (true creativity, etc.) and indoctrination (control), the latter which is considered must, when cranking out armies of soldiers, clerks and corporate programmers.
Re:Why SICP Matters by obviouslygreen on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @01:52PM (#5633796)
Thanks for the input. I just started learning Clojure and it's blowing my mind... I felt sorry for some friends in college that started with Scheme but now I'm realizing I missed something pretty beneficial.