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Re:Why SICP Matters by SeanDav on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @10:06AM (#5632252)
Sounds like Berkeley are making a huge mistake and losing sight of what a University is there for. They seem to have moved to a more practical approach than theoretical approach.

This is the type of approach that is more appropriate to a Technical College than a major University. This new approach almost seems like teaching civil engineers how to weld and rivet in order to build bridges, rather than deeply understanding the mathematical theory behind stress and vectors.

Re:Why SICP Matters by calinet6 on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @10:11AM (#5632270)
Yes, I think they're moving in that direction.

The intro courses, while in Python, still use many of the concepts and text of SICP, so it's not all gone. Many of the concepts translate well, and it's not the end of the world or even a slippery slope—I think that would be overreacting.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with using a newer and more useful language to teach these concepts—after all, as Harvey always said, the language doesn't really matter. However, it's conceding to rationality just slightly, and you're right, a University, especially Berkeley in my mind, is a place where you're free to learn concepts and think theoretically without needing to find a real-world application for at least a couple years. They should keep that as a core value, and I certainly hope they do even as they use more modern languages.

Re:Why SICP Matters by No1 on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @12:49PM (#5633312)
Does MIT even use Scheme for their intro CS courses anymore? Harvey's article makes it sound like they switched to Python when they went from a "curriculum organized around topics" to a "curriculum organized around applications" - it seems to be the trend everywhere.
Re:Why SICP Matters by gnosis on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @01:10PM (#5633449)
MIT did indeed switch from Scheme to Python for their introductory courses (though I've heard they still use Scheme in some more advanced courses).[1][2]

However, I recall that a little later some MIT graduate students started teaching their own version of the classic SICP-based course. I can't seem to find a link to it now, unfortunately. I wonder how that turned out, and if they're still teaching it now.

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=602307

[2] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=530605

Re:Why SICP Matters by ibrahima on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @07:25PM (#5635546)
Brian Harvey was also teaching his own version of the old CS61A last I heard, but he may be retiring after this year. (I've been hearing about him retiring pretty much since I started at Berkeley 5 years ago, for what it's worth).
Re:Why SICP Matters by tjr on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @01:44PM (#5633741)
There's a variant of 6.001 that's taught in January IAP sessions:

http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.S184/

Re:Why SICP Matters by hga on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @02:39PM (#5634052)
Actually switched entirely to Python and Java. In theory a lot of SICP is taught in the 6.005 Elements of Software Construction course, but since it uses Java, to use Pauli's phrase, for that purpose it's not even wrong.
Re:Why SICP Matters by jlgreco on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @03:54PM (#5634508)
Northeastern still uses Scheme, but I'm not sure who else does. A real shame.
Re:Why SICP Matters by ycy on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @12:03AM (#5636379)
Nope, scheme is still being taught in the "Python class". The final project is writing a Scheme interpreter in Python, so students still get to learn Scheme.

http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs61a/sp13/projects/schem...

Re:Why SICP Matters by steveklabnik on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @10:30AM (#5632354)
s/Berkeley/most universities in the States/
Re:Why SICP Matters by saraid216 on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @05:47PM (#5635090)
It's also not just CS, though CS is the largest culprit because well... software is eating the world.

No one cares about getting an education. They just want a job.

Re:Why SICP Matters by coliveira on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @10:07PM (#5636055)
But there are still areas, lets say for example civil engineering, where you need to know about building materials, some physics and math to do your job. In CS, on the other hand, if you know how to put together a few web pages in Python and solve half a dozen brain teasers you may get a job in a very good company.
Re:Why SICP Matters by saraid216 on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @03:14AM (#5636869)
You're missing my point, which was about priority order.

Most people are going to college hoping to get a job. They're learning because they're told they have to learn, so they do a bad job learning. In a field like civil engineering, you can't graduate unless you pass classes that are simply unpassable without learning some stuff. (I have a friend going through aerodynamics right now and I'm hearing about everything he's learning.)

This is kind of a microcosmic version of what we're seeing in general: we see people as workers first and human beings second. The universities and the kids are following suit.

Re:Why SICP Matters by derefr on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @10:52AM (#5638284)
We created elementary schools. The children who attended them surpassed their peers. Employers began to require them as a signal of competence. Eventually, being such a "universal good", elementary education became a public service of the state.

Then we created secondary/"grammar" schools. The children who attended them surpassed their peers, who had only attended elementary school. Employers began to require a secondary-school education as a signal of competence. Eventually, being such a "universal good", secondary education became a public service of the state.

Then we created universities...

---

Although the inductive step is valid, there's a problem in the assumptions: we already had universities for thousands of years before the introduction of elementary or secondary education!

The traditional "liberal education" of The University, where the upper-class and the cunning go to cloister themselves with one-another and thus boost their mutual productivity in all sorts of status-signalling arts (sounds sort of like TED, doesn't it?) has come crashing head-first into the rising bar of minimum-expected human competence. Success in secondary school no longer tells you anything about a person's class or cunning, and that's forced employers to look for increasingly-lofty-and-meaningless trust-signals. So "everyone who's anyone" expects to go to university now, from the spoilt valley-girl to the farm bumpkin.

Perhaps, in the end, if we want to preserve the "usefulness" of university, we'll chop off the undergraduate portion of it and call that "tertiary school" or something. Everyone gets to go, it occurs at community colleges, probably most of the material comes from Khan Academy and the like. Then the rich and the cunning can go to The University after that.

Re:Why SICP Matters by saraid216 on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @02:52PM (#5640028)
> Although the inductive step is valid, there's a problem in the assumptions

I'm really not sure who you're addressing. No one is claiming these assumptions.

Re:Why SICP Matters by pekk on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @11:12AM (#5638410)
If you know those things... and are fresh out of Stanford, MIT, or Berkeley
Re:Why SICP Matters by kartturi on Thursday May 02, 2013 @09:15AM (#5644244)
> No one cares about getting an education. They just want a job.

Internal vs. external motivation? Maybe some day, when programming is no more needed for anything useful, it can really flourish as an art. Like painting, when its principal real-world reason-to-be was supplanted by photographing. E.g. I don't understand the obsession of quest to invent always _more and more_ optimal algorithms, because often the less optimal ones are more interesting and elegant.

Re:Why SICP Matters by obviouslygreen on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @11:48AM (#5632864)
Honest interest from someone who doesn't know: While I know this is happening at least some other places in the US (it happened to the one I went to and to at least one a friend attended), is it largely limited to this country, or are other countries seeing similar issues?
Re:Why SICP Matters by pimeys on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @12:14PM (#5633064)
My university (Helsinki University of Technology) changed the freshman course from SICP to Java in the beginning of the century. The reason was Nokia, who wanted Java programmers straight from the school.

Nowadays they're using Python.

I'm very disappointed I didn't have a chance to study that course. I read the book last year and did some exercises by my own. I never had so much fun with any CS book than I had with SICP.

Re:Why SICP Matters by dscrd on Wednesday May 01, 2013 @06:10AM (#5637181)
Nokia. That company just keeps giving. Some universities in Finland fell into that very same trap a second time and moved towards the holy triad of C#, .Net and Windows Phone. Utter shortsighted idiocy
Re:Why SICP Matters by kartturi on Thursday May 02, 2013 @09:03AM (#5644176)
It is the difference between encouraging plasticity (true creativity, etc.) and indoctrination (control), the latter which is considered must, when cranking out armies of soldiers, clerks and corporate programmers.
Re:Why SICP Matters by obviouslygreen on Tuesday April 30, 2013 @01:52PM (#5633796)
Thanks for the input. I just started learning Clojure and it's blowing my mind... I felt sorry for some friends in college that started with Scheme but now I'm realizing I missed something pretty beneficial.