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Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by sliverstorm on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @01:40PM (#5526699)
Authentication is to prevent someone from pretending to be you. This is not the same as trying to keep your messages private.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by kamjam on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:20PM (#5527424)
The lock on my door is to prevent someone from pretending to be me to enter my property. This is not the same as trying to keep my stuff private or safe.

Note how your statement does not hold in the real world.

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by sliverstorm on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:55PM (#5527662)
We are talking about a transmission protocol, not a storage protocol. For storage, privacy and identity overlap. For transmission they do not.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by superuser2 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:00PM (#5528127)
So you don't mind if I wiretap all your phones?

Email being transmitted by 3rd parties is not different from voice calls being transmitted by 3rd parties. Yes, you are trusting a provider, with the expectation that your provider will send the data where you've asked it to send the data, and nowhere else. This is still true whether you're talking postal service, landline voice calls, SMS, cellular voice calls, Skype, etc.

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by sliverstorm on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:48PM (#5528743)
Maybe I'm expressing myself in too cryptic of a fashion. I'm simply asserting that while privacy and authentication sometimes overlap, they are not the same thing.

From the parent of my original comment:

Almost every SMTP server out there today requires authentication ... That is the very definition of trying to keep things private.

Do you disagree with me? Do you believe that SMTP authentication contributes to privacy and not authenticity?

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by maratd on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:46PM (#5529424)
Hey, hey, what's with the "..." and cutting out the relevant parts? I explicitly mention SSL and TLS. Those are encryption standards that are designed exclusively for privacy.

If I am using them to communicate with a 3rd party, I have a reasonable expectation of privacy between myself and that 3rd party. You would most certainly need a warrant to turn around and try to get access to a message stored on their servers.

On top of that, quite a bit of email today doesn't even touch SMTP. If I'm sending an email from one GMail user to another GMail user, I'm pretty sure it is just shuffled around on Google's internal servers. And, of course, I'm connecting to Google using SSL, an encrypted connection.

How does that not scream private?

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by sliverstorm on Thursday April 11, 2013 @12:51AM (#5530045)
Hey, hey, what's with the "..." and cutting out the relevant parts? I explicitly mention SSL and TLS. Those are encryption standards that are designed exclusively for privacy.

I cut out the SSL and TLS because I don't disagree; SSL and TLS certainly says "privacy". I wanted to specifically address the notion that "authentication =~ privacy"

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by eruditely on Thursday April 11, 2013 @12:40AM (#5530019)
While you are making your point, you're being overly pedantic, and the point is irrelevant. Email should not be able to be accessed by a third party without warrant period. Whether or not the analogies line up.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by sliverstorm on Thursday April 11, 2013 @01:16AM (#5530111)
It may seem like pedantry, and it may not be directly applicable to the article, but it is a common security fallacy I wanted to call out.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:34PM (#5529159)
>Do you believe that SMTP authentication contributes to privacy and not authenticity?

Why can't it be both?

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by delluminatus on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:49PM (#5529881)
Well, authentication simply doesn't provide any privacy. It just doesn't. However, SSL/TLS do, which are widely used -- but not authentication.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by superuser2 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:50PM (#5528445)
So you're saying phone calls are only private because of a misguided adherence to tradition?
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by qu4z-2 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:49PM (#5529211)
He's not arguing against privacy; he's merely pointing out that requiring authentication to send emails isn't the same thing.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by rayiner on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:40PM (#5528396)
The protections for phone calls arose back when phone lines were dumb analog wires between telephones. E-mail has never been like that, and it's always involved storing communications on a third party's systems.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:39PM (#5529176)
>E-mail has never been like that, and it's always involved storing communications on a third party's systems.

Why should storing something on a third party's system obviate the need for a warrant? If I rent real property and use it to store my papers, does that mean the government should be entitled to seize them without a warrant because I'm storing them on the premises of a third party? If not, what's the difference?

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by dclowd9901 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @04:33PM (#5527955)
So the true comparison might be standing naked on your walkway to your front door from the curbside, and saying people don't have a right to take your picture. It's prviate property that's publicly viewable. When expressed this way, then it's actually pretty easy to see how it extends to the real world (you have no expectation of privacy in the publicly viewable space).
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by Terretta on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:38PM (#5528384)
No, think private car with tinted windows and a privacy partition shuttling you from home to the office. You'd be annoyed if your changing clothes in the back seat showed up on YouTube, because while your transport was along public routes, it was encapsulated in an expectation of privacy afforded you by your private car provider.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by rayiner on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:24PM (#5527456)
Except Google's servers and whatnot are not your property. The lock keeps other Google customers from accessing "your stuff" not Google itself.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by GauntletWizard on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:56PM (#5527670)
The mailbox in the foyer of your building and whatnot are not your property. The lock keeps other tenants from accessing "your stuff" and not your landlord himself.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by rayiner on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:59PM (#5527701)
There are special laws protecting mailboxes. They are actually property of the USPS. A better example is if you left a computer printout in your building's leasing office. That is not protected.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by belorn on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:37PM (#5528372)
It should be mentioned that those laws are being eroded. The sanctiness of the post is no longer as safe as it used to be.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by hpguy on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:52PM (#5527641)
The data I put in Google is MY property, I want that data protected and don't care less about servers just as I do not claim ownership to the school locker.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by rayiner on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:58PM (#5527697)
If you want it protected, don't leave it in clear text in the custody of someone else who may or may not choose to hand it over to the authorities without your permission.

In other news: you can't invoke the 4th amendment if you stash boxes of weed at a friend's house and he hands them over to the government when asked.

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by unclebucknasty on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:22PM (#5529126)
You are consistently morphing the issue and providing bad analogies.

There are privacy policies and terms of service that cover what a service provider will share with whom and under what conditions. This represents an agreement between the user and the service.

However, that is wholly different from the rights held by the government (IRS) to compel the service provider to provide information at the government's demand.

Your analogy with the "boxes of weed" are similarly misguided and completely unrelated. The more relevant analogy would be that the government forced your friend's landlord to unlock his door without a warrant, entered, discovered the boxes of weed with your name on it, then arrested you.

And, to put your analogy back into the subject e-mail context, if you e-mailed something incriminating to your friend and your friend opted to turn you in to the authorities, that is entirely different from the government gaining access to your e-mail of its own volition, and without a warrant.

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by kamjam on Thursday April 11, 2013 @09:34AM (#5531832)
So if I send a letter via USPS do I have the right to expect that someone will not intercept and open that letter without getting the correct permission?

Mail theft was a pretty serious crime in USA I am led to believe, regardless of whether it is sent in encrypted form or not...

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by shmerl on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:58PM (#5527695)
The only way to ensure your data protection never changed - encryption. Google or not Google notwithstanding.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by nateabele on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:55PM (#5527669)
You can easily demonstrate the veracity of your statement by letting us all know what publicly-accessible server we can access to read your email, without using violence and coercion (for which 'government power' is a euphemism) against a service provider to circumvent your 'authentication'.
Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by sliverstorm on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:58PM (#5527691)
I think you are making the same mistake as some other people in this chain. We are talking about SMTP, not IMAP. You don't need violence or coercion to sniff unencrypted mail in-flight.

To prove to yourself that SMTP is primarily concerned about authenticity over privacy, just try setting up your own mail server. Ensuring your mail is not blocked and/or marked as spam is an involved process of establishing multiple checkpoints re-confirming your identity. DKIM, SPF, domainkeys- each intended to establish that you sent this (unencrypted) message, and not someone pretending to be you.

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by superuser2 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:20PM (#5528271)
>You don't need violence or coercion to sniff unencrypted mail in-flight.

Google won't hand you a packet capture from eth0 on smtp.gmail.com because you asked nicely. You would have to coerce an insider (or exploit your way in).

The only situation in which your statement applies is if you're abusing a position of trust as a network administrator. While it's true that this is possible, it's also possible for someone to break into your (postal) mailbox. You still have an expectation of privacy.

Re:IRS claims it can read your e-mail without a warrant by sliverstorm on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:51PM (#5528756)
You don't need a tap on smtp.gmail.com to listen to a message leaving smtp.gmail.com