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Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:32AM (#5524093)
If Starbucks invaded your city and used their cash pile to give away free coffee for years until there were no more independent coffee bars left, and then suddenly decided to close up shop leaving you with no decent coffee bars, would that make them evil? At least it would make them careless and insensitive.

A better option would be to a) charge a price and compete fairly in the first place, or b) open source or sell off the product so it could live on.

Re:How can we get Google Support? by icebraining on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:47AM (#5524140)
Assuming Starbucks coffee wasn't the crap it is, I'd be glad if they did so. New coffee bars can and would be opened once they left anyway, and until then, we'd get free coffee. Seems like an excellent deal to me.

In any case, "Starbucks" didn't prevent me from having some good homemade coffee for a few months now.

Re:How can we get Google Support? by dugmartin on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:54AM (#5524170)
The problem is that after so many years of free coffee almost nobody will want to pay for it again.
Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:28AM (#5524257)
Not only that, but people would probably be wary of investing too much in a new coffee shop. After all, if Starbucks changed their mind so suddenly, what's to keep them from changing their mind again?
Re:How can we get Google Support? by icebraining on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:02AM (#5524348)
Why do you consider it a sudden change of mind? They announced the "spring cleaning"[1] in 2011 and have been gradually closing services since then.

[1]: http://googleblog.blogspot.pt/2011/09/fall-spring-clean.html

Re:How can we get Google Support? by jiggy2011 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:08AM (#5524208)
If nobody else can sustain a free model then either the price will rise or people didn't actually want coffee all that much anyway.
Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:43AM (#5524304)
..or maybe Starbucks successfully pushed the consumers to some other way of consuming coffee (for instance hypothetical store-bought Starbuck espresso capsules)
Re:How can we get Google Support? by notdrunkatall on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:07AM (#5524368)
...and if the consumer is satisfied with his new way of consuming coffee, then what harm was done?
Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:22AM (#5525671)
Maybe most consumers are satisfied, but the ones that are not don't make up a big enough population to sustain a good coffee bar?
Re:How can we get Google Support? by DannyBee on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @04:14PM (#5527823)
So then it turns out that your small group doesn't matter as much as you think it did, and it turned out to be smaller than you thought. That is, as they say, tough.

Look, just because you want something to happen doesn't make it viable in the long term, and someone who demonstrated it was not viable in the long term doesn't become evil because they sped that process up. If they actually burned down all the other coffee bars in the process, that's one thing, but they didn't. They convinced folks to be satisied with something else.

You have literally just said "What if the remaining users are not enough to support a viable product I liked".

Then there aren't enough to support a non-viable product you liked, and that wouldn't be any different no matter how it happened. The only difference is it happened in 5 years instead of 50. If the other way was still something that satisfied people, one would assume others would eventually revert to it.

All drugs have some set of side effects, and usually very badly effect some small percentage of the population that won't know until the take them. Does this alone make releasing any drug evil?

If not, can we please just move the discussion along into social utility territory, instead of the "well, it hurt someone somewhere, so it's evil" stuff?

Contrary the misquoting a few parents up, the statement was "don't be evil" not "do no evil". This is an attempt to be guided by doing the right thing, not an attempt to ever avoid harming anyone. Basically, whether someone is being evil or not is not about you, it's about them.

Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:59PM (#5528785)
I think there's a big difference between demonstrating that something is not viable in the long term, and some company killing off a business because it suits their particular business goals and they have the money to do it.

Consumer habits, laws and lots of other things can and are changed by businesses, and it's naive to think that all or even most of these changes are inevitable or for the better just because they happen.

I think it's to simplistic to ask whether a certain company is being evil or not. The discussion about what is evil and not isn't very relevant to someone who just lost their business because some algorithm tripped inside Google and nobody inside Google can help. It would be better if Google committed itself to more concrete promises about how to treat their customers and what not to do, and had independent audits to keep them honest. But as long as they are as dominant as they are, they'll never have to.

Re:How can we get Google Support? by icebraining on Thursday April 11, 2013 @04:20AM (#5530650)
I think there's a big difference between demonstrating that something is not viable in the long term, and some company killing off a business because it suits their particular business goals and they have the money to do it.

Are you saying that Google created Reader eight years ago, with the only purpose of now killing it to somehow feed Google+? If they actually did so, then I'm in impressed by their long-term thinking, but I don't see how you can derive that conclusion. (And I'm further not convinced at all that killing Reader suits their business goals in any way, except for not having to waste manpower maintaining it)

Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Thursday April 11, 2013 @05:07AM (#5530785)
No, I'm not saying that. I was thinking about the hypothetical coffee chain, and I'm countering his idea (from what he writes, that any market change that happens is "inevitable" and that businesses can merely accelerate or delay that change).

I don't think Google had any plans for Reader except that making Reader would be neat. And then they decided that killing it off would be a better idea. I'm certain that it's hurting their business long-term.

Re:How can we get Google Support? by iand on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:02AM (#5524198)
So starbucks wouldn't be able to hike the price after giving it away for free? Consumer still wins.
Re:How can we get Google Support? by digitalsushi on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:20AM (#5524918)
you've never had one of those headaches you get on the third day of not getting a cup.
Re:How can we get Google Support? by VMG on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:17AM (#5524234)
aren't these people evil then?
Re:How can we get Google Support? by _mulder_ on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:48AM (#5524730)
Google aren't closing their main product offering though (Search). A better analogy might be if they decided to give away little biscuits for free for many years and then one day stopped it... point being their main product is subsidising the other 'free' product as a way to get people to use Starbucks.

A real-life example might be their 'free WiFi'. They are well within their rights to stop doing this tomorrow if they choose to. Good luck to anyone who complains because their business is affected because they chose to base themselves out of a Starbucks!

Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:29AM (#5525721)
True, that's a better analogy, especially if they drove local bakeries out of business by giving away muffins and other baked goods for free.
Re:How can we get Google Support? by rplnt on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:27AM (#5524252)
> If Starbucks invaded your city and used their cash pile to give away free coffee for years until there were no more independent coffee bars left

That's why it is illegal (in some countries at least).

Re:How can we get Google Support? by tomkarlo on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:33AM (#5525752)
So should free Internet sites be illegal? The NYT used to be free, now it's paid. Is that evil? Is HN evil for not charging?

Anti-dumping laws make sense when you're talking about hard goods with a concrete marginal cost of goods sold (like coffee.) Theydon't make much sense for web sites and software.

Re:How can we get Google Support? by rplnt on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @02:45PM (#5527169)
It's not about being free or not. You shouldn't operate with loss only to drive customers away from competition. That being said, I don't believe these laws should apply to online services. It's entirely different market. I was mentioning it because the example with Starbucks couldn't happen, thus it was a bad example.
Re:How can we get Google Support? by andyhmltn on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:47AM (#5524137)
Open source coffee. We could be on to something...
Re:How can we get Google Support? by gnaffle on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:41AM (#5524294)