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Re:Bitcoin rises by snitko on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @03:14PM (#5402937)
I have never met a single person who was able to convincingly raise at least a little bit of suspicion about deflation in me. Why is deflation bad? Because people stop spending? Can't you see how ludicrous this explanation is?
Re:Bitcoin rises by notahacker on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @04:05PM (#5403268)
It's more because people stop investing

If the real rate return of investments over any period of time is on average less than simply hoarding the currency (an inevitable consequence of a permanently deflationary economy) your economy is screwed up.

Re:Bitcoin rises by jessaustin on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @04:51PM (#5403555)
Bitcoin and its users have no duty to any existing "economy", and certainly don't amount to one themselves. If one's holdings of bitcoin appreciate with respect to some other commodity, eventually the wealth effect will make investment and other spending in that second commodity attractive. No one is in any sense stuck in a "bitcoin economy".

If I'm misunderstanding, please clarify.

Re:Bitcoin rises by notahacker on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @07:44PM (#5404456)
Your above points are correct; depreciation in general is a bad thing but for a "parallel currency" aiming for a particular niche like Bitcoin it's probably not an issue, especially because holding Bitcoins is definitely not without risk.

(In the unlikely event that Bitcoins ever became widely popular with speculators, then governments will tax or restrict domestic purchasers or exchanges for Bitcoins (they can't and won't be especially efficient at doing this; the US/EU don't need to be to severely damage the exchange value of a Bitcoin.).

Re:Bitcoin rises by snitko on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @04:21PM (#5403360)
Ok, let's say everybody in the world uses Bitcoin. Nobody invests. If that's the case, then the amount of goods and services in the economy remains constant, which means the price of Bitcoin doesn't rise. How do I make money then without investing and creating more value?
Re:Bitcoin rises by notahacker on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @06:29PM (#5404052)
In that scenario, once you've adjusted for the risk associated with investment you'd give up all hope of "making money" - with no aggregate monetary growth(1) it would be like "investing" in a game of poker (sure, you might back the surprise winner but...). It's amazing how much less risk averse you are if you lose ~2% per annum from sitting on cash and you can make money from a slightly-worse-than-average investment portfolio (and there's a 2% return for an average investment)

Arcane hypothetical edge cases are unhelpful for exposition. It's easier to look at the conventional alternative: everybody in the world uses a means of payment which diminishes in value at a slow but stable rate. Now the average person that invests in production gains, and the average person holding cash is incentivised to convert that cash into something they want or funding the production of something others want. Isn't this better?

(1)strictly speaking we're better off looking at money as a flow, in which case the velocity of circulation comes into place, but a fixed money supply certainly wouldn't induce that to increase....

Re:Bitcoin rises by snitko on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @07:10PM (#5404270)
with no aggregate monetary growth it would be like "investing" in a game of poker.

This statement is wrong, because you measure profits in money rather than value. With bitcoin the amount of money in the economy stays the same, true. However the value of each unit grows as soon as you invest and produce something useful that people want. This means, you may receive back even less than you invested in absolute units of money, but more in value.

Re:Bitcoin rises by blogospheroid on Thursday March 21, 2013 @06:55AM (#5414181)
As I had replied to Eliezer, investing in a deflationary world will be tilted towards capital that yields a regular stream of real dividends: actual goods, not money. That is, there will be fewer corporations that will be expected to give money as a yield and more consumer cooperatives that will yield goods and services. Farms that yield food, NG well and that yields NG, a power plant and get a yield of electricity and so on.
Re:Bitcoin rises by Hermel on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @06:07PM (#5403935)
Actually, it is only less for a sub-average investment. If you invest something with an above-average return, you'll be better off investing.
Re:Bitcoin rises by betterunix on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @03:44PM (#5403130)
"Why is deflation bad?"

Deflation is bad because it makes loan repayment more difficult during both recessions and periods of growth. In the extreme, deflation will worsen recessions and hinder expansions of the economy.

Re:Bitcoin rises by snitko on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @04:05PM (#5403266)
Then we have to ask, bad for whom? For those who take loans certainly it's bad. For those who loan, it's great. Inflation creates a reverse situation. It is possible, I would imagine, to create contracts that adjust for the fluctuations in currency valuation, but it is unwise to blame deflation for all the bad luck of those who take loans. Deflation would only mean that people taking those loans would think really hard about the prospects of any future profit they are hoping to get from investing the loaned money. Which means we'll have a more, not less, stable economy.
Re:Bitcoin rises by betterunix on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @04:33PM (#5403428)
Actually, deflation is bad for both lenders and borrowers, since it increases the likelihood of default. Let's put it this way: if you knew that it would be hard for me to repay a loan during an economic boom, and even harder during a recession, would you want to lend money to me? Deflation actively discourages lending, by creating an incentive to hold money.

It is easy to think that lending is a bad thing, but let's put it this way: it is because we are able to take out loans (of various kinds) to start businesses that non-wealthy non-aristocrats are able to participate in the market. Too much credit is a bad thing, but too little credit denies capital to anyone who is not already wealthy.

Re:Bitcoin rises by snitko on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @05:10PM (#5403662)
You have a point, however I would like to note that Bitcoin is not actually a deflationary currency as I explained in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403360

The bigger issue we should be focusing on is not deflation or inflation but rather who controls it. If it is controlled by one player (government) then it ultimately decides who benefits and who loses from it. It is a much more honest situation when market controls it. Once there are too many people taking loans and going bankrupt, then investors stop investing until a point is reached at which it is more profitable to invest than to hoard again.

In any case, the extent to which people are denied access to capital is almost exactly the same as the extent to which they benefit from hoarding.The distribution of capital changes, rewarding less opportunistic and more hardworking people during deflation. Ironically, it's exactly the opposite of what governments in almost any country tell people.

Finally, I would like to add that even though capital is important, it is not the only component responsible for creating value and wealth. Thus, economy would reward not only people capable of obtaining capital, but also those who have great ideas and skills to implement those ideas.

Re:Bitcoin rises by hatu on Friday March 22, 2013 @04:46AM (#5421928)
It is deflationary. I have 1€, I can buy one loaf of bread with it today. One year from now: Inflation - I can buy 0.5 loafs of bread. Deflation - I can buy 2 loafs of bread.
Re:Bitcoin rises by jessaustin on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @04:57PM (#5403590)
Have any loans ever been denominated in bitcoin? Given the disadvantages of a bitcoin loan, some of which you cite, when should we expect such to occur? Is there any reason to believe bitcoin could affect the supply or demand of loans denominated in other currencies?
Re:Bitcoin rises by betterunix on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @05:19PM (#5403712)
I am not aware of any major Bitcoin lending, nor would I expect to see any major Bitcoin lending at any point. The reason is simple: Bitcoin is not a legal tender anywhere, nor does it enjoy any legal status as a currency anywhere. Courts deal in fiat currencies, and both lenders and borrowers need to deal with the court system in case of default; until courts start dealing in Bitcoin, issuing a Bitcoin loan will only add complication to such proceedings.

In my view, Bitcoin will ultimately be little more than another way to make electronic payments. Merchants will accept Bitcoin only to immediately trade the Bitcoin units for some fiat currency on a Bitcoin exchange. Bitcoin exchanges will basically be payment processors. This, of course, assumes that technical problems do not destabilize everyone's trust in Bitcoin as a secure payment system (and given that it fails to meet the formal definition of security used by cryptographers, I suspect that this is bound to happen).

Re:Bitcoin rises by jessaustin on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @05:47PM (#5403836)
All of this makes sense, which leads me to think that when you said "deflation is bad" above you meant it in a very general sense rather than as a criticism of bitcoin. After all if there will never be significant loans in bitcoin it can't very well be implicated in a breakdown of the lending system. Sorry for misunderstanding.
Re:Bitcoin rises by themusicgod1 on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @05:25PM (#5403730)
Yes. Ripple[1] has allowed for the use of bitcoins to denominate loan-like credit extended between people for quite some time[2]. You just have to be careful.

By the way I back my ripple credit entirely with bitcoin -- if you can make a payment go through the network to me, you are entitled to it.

[1] http://www.ripple.com

[2] http://ripplepay.com

Re:Bitcoin rises by asoltys12345 on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @06:27PM (#5404037)