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Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by jfoster on Saturday March 09, 2013 @08:21PM (#5350284)
I don't think that translates. Racism is hatred based on race. Hatred is something that needs to be addressed more directly because it won't go away on its own. Isn't the gender imbalance in tech something that is self-perpetuating the more visible it is? If it were closed, would it stay closed?
Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by stygianguest on Saturday March 09, 2013 @08:50PM (#5350352)
Racism is not about hate. That is only the most extreme form and hardly the most damaging kind (in our society; there's always genocide). Racism is the differentiation (discrimination) of people by race: assuming a black guy will not be into d&d. Even if it is statistically true, such stereotypes are damaging in two ways: (1) we wont invite him for a dnd session even if he would've loved it; and (2) the same person would probably have declined anyway even though he would've liked it.

Discrimination impedes freedom in many ways. Legally, most obstacles have been removed. We need to change peoples/our preconceptions of others as well as ourselves.

Emancipation requires changing our habits. Learning something new, especially when it goes against established patterns, is achieved most effectively when the new is made explitit and even exaggerated.

I think GP is spot on. The gender imbalance is visible even if we pretend it doesn't exist. The only way to change it, is to force it. That will be damn hard and totally worth it.

Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by kaa2102 on Saturday March 09, 2013 @10:05PM (#5350527)
I would say that racism is about hate, ignorance, and creating systematic barriers to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Women are considered a minority group; yet, white women still retain the privilege of being white. It sounds like the essay echoes the sentiment of being privileged and not wanting to be sub-grouped. I've noticed that some white friends didn't consider themselves to belong to any special "ethnic group" - they considered themselves to be "normal".

The point of the Civil Rights movement, the Voting Rights Act, and implementation of affirmative action policies was that hatred and bigotry gave way to the people creating barriers that prevented minorities from pursuing life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Affirmative action is needed because the impact of centuries of systemic discrimination cannot be undone in just one generation.

The solution to ending racism, homophobia, and sexism cannot be to ignore these evils. Shine a light on them.

Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by newnewnew on Saturday March 09, 2013 @10:59PM (#5350637)
Is racism just about white privilege, though? In America, ethnic Indians and east Asians outperform all other ethnic groups on a host of metrics - income, criminality, education, and etc. Isn't there a huge Asian privilege in America that nobody is talking about? Why don't we talk about the Asian/White achievement gap?
Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by kaa2102 on Saturday March 09, 2013 @11:26PM (#5350699)
This isn't an apples to apples comparison. Asian Americans have never systematically disenfranchised white Americans.

However, you bring up some interesting points but that I have a couple of issues with including probationary whiteness, survivor-ship bias, and performance vs. access. I don't think Asian Americans had to drink from the "colored" fountain. It's easier to win the game if you are allowed to play. In many cases, Asians are considered probationary white so should we be talking about a White/White achievement gap?

Children of immigrants are highly motivated to achieve by parents who selected to come to the US. The folks that immigrate were motivated enough to come here and be successful. This is the essence of survivor-ship bias.

There was a study a couple years ago that showed that having an black-sounding name on your resume lead to fewer callbacks. You have a better shot at batting .300 if you are allowed to pick up a bat.

Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by newnewnew on Sunday March 10, 2013 @12:18AM (#5350836)
Japanese and Chinese Americans have faced lots of historical obstacles, from anti-miscegenation laws to internment camps. Ever hear of the Chinese Exclusion Act? They still face a lot of stereotypes. There's a big culture and language divide between the cultures of South/East Asia and those of Europeans. I don't buy the idea that they are "probationary whites".

They just happen to be really, really good at what they do, on average, to the point where they outperform whites in majority-white nations. And in doing so, they falsify the hypothesis that achievement gaps are caused solely by majority-group racism.

Asians blow whites out of the water on SAT, MCAT, IQ, and other tests of achievement, aptitude, and ability. Even if there was a bias against asian names in the market place, Asians would probably overcome it just by being too good to ignore.

It's really hard for me to square leftist theories of racism with the data. To be successful in America, the best thing you can do is be born to Indian parents[1].

It is interesting that you mention immigrants. African immigrants to America are a high-achieving group, outperforming whites in income. So they manage to beat the stereotypes while African-Americans do not.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_Un...

Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by im3w1l on Sunday March 10, 2013 @09:43AM (#5351863)
>African immigrants to America are a high-achieving group, outperforming whites in income. So they manage to beat the stereotypes while African-Americans do not.

Isn't that an argument FOR survivor-ship bias?

How do the ethnic asians that immigrated a century ago stack up against the newly immigrated ones?

Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by newnewnew on Sunday March 10, 2013 @05:37PM (#5353591)
hmmm, so would you suppose that children of African immigrants (the Obamas of the world) run into the negative stereotypes of our society and start to fall in socioeconomic standing towards the level of African Americans?
Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by im3w1l on Tuesday March 12, 2013 @01:50PM (#5363550)
Suppose is too strong a word. I find the hypothesis worthy of serious consideration though.
Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by hackinthebochs on Saturday March 09, 2013 @08:30PM (#5350314)
I can agree that its less self-perpetuating than racism is. But the root cause of imbalances in tech is also very pervasive, as it is a product of gender stereotypes in the wider culture. Gender stereotypes are certainly self-perpetuating: young kids internalize what they learn and then perpetuate that behavior as they become older. So to break that cycle requires direct intervention to prevent shaming for girls who don't like stereotypical activities, and to allow other girls to sample things that they otherwise would not have thought open to them. A part of this intervention is to get more positive female role-models in tech and hard science fields. Direct outreach to older girls by creating (admittedly artificial) learning environments that they will be more comfortable in will help with this. These artificial environments aren't a solution, but they can be a stepping stone for girls who would otherwise be too intimidated to give it a try otherwise.
Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by kelnos on Saturday March 09, 2013 @08:30PM (#5350310)
I wouldn't characterize racism as hatred only. There are many more subtle (even sometimes unconscious) forms of racism. Racism runs the whole spectrum from ignorant misconceptions all the way up to irrational hatred.
Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by protomyth on Saturday March 09, 2013 @08:43PM (#5350343)
People on their couch at home will still laugh at a blatantly racist joke and not think much of it depending on the target.
Re:On being a girl in computer science - a confession by sliverstorm on Saturday March 09, 2013 @09:44PM (#5350490)
Racism is quite simply prejudice based on race, and prejudice does not mean hatred.