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Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by andrewfelix on Thursday March 07, 2013 @01:04AM (#5336375)
..."almost every major idea in the history considered unlikely quackery".

Every major idea?

Perhaps many hypotheses were considered inconceivable. But certainly not quackery.

Scientific ideas tend to me testable. A lot of what this guys suggests is entirely unfalsifiable. He may as well be discussing Pastafarianism.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @01:36AM (#5336452)
> Every major idea?

Ok, maybe not even almost every major idea (I did use the word "almost"), but pretty much by definition every major conceptual shift, from a round earth, to relativity, to microorganisms.

> Scientific ideas tend to me testable. A lot of what this guys suggests is entirely unfalsifiable. He may as well be discussing Pastafarianism.

Scientific ideas do tend to be testable. This doesn't mean we can't have ideas that are not testable or not yet testable. Hopefully, every idea will some day be falsifiable, but we can't rely on that. We may need to speculate in untestable territory before we find a plausible and reasonable theory that is testable. And as you know, science does not tell us that anything is true, only that some things can't be proven false.

There is more to life than testable scientific understandings. I could love my mother or I could not love my mother. Can you test that? Because you can not test it, does it mean it should not be mentioned and is not important?

Human love, creativity, and consciousness are perhaps the most interesting and important parts of existence, yet they are not currently testable from an experiential viewpoint, and they may never be.

There are qualities of the consciousness, which by definition are qualities of existence - love, color, taste, beauty, suffering, pain, joy - which can only be explained scientifically in their mechanical reflections in brain matter. Science can not tell us anything about the qualitative conscious experience of these qualities are, yet those qualities may be the most important part of the universe. What would the universe be without the conscious experience of its wonder and beauty?

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by handyman5 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @03:23AM (#5336710)
> There is more to life than testable scientific understandings. I could love my mother or I could not love my mother. Can you test that? Because you can not test it, does it mean it should not be mentioned and is not important?

No, but it does mean that it's not science.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by upquark on Thursday March 07, 2013 @11:07AM (#5338341)
>I could love my mother or I could not love my mother. Can you test that?

In theory, yes. What happens inside your brain isn't untestable or sacred, we're just not there yet technologically (but we'll get there).

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @12:04PM (#5338694)
Love is a subjective experience of consciousness. We must first have some clue about what consciousness is, then perhaps we will be able to scientifically explain what love is.
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by upquark on Thursday March 07, 2013 @12:32PM (#5338875)
If I create a device that predicts with 99% accuracy whether a test subject loves their mother (by looking at the subject's brain), without ever answering any of your questions about consciousness, would you retract the above statement?
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @06:00PM (#5340966)
No, because you would not be explaining what love is, any more than explain what pain is by showing me the brain patterns the light up when I twist your nipple.

Whether of not you can test for love is immaterial to explaining the experience.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by upquark on Thursday March 07, 2013 @08:17PM (#5341569)
When did I say I want to be explaining what love is? I said it's testable in theory, and you don't seem to be arguing against that.
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Friday March 08, 2013 @02:25AM (#5342408)
> When did I say I want to be explaining what love is?

Well, you were asking me to retract this statement based on the theoretical existence of a test:

> Love is a subjective experience of consciousness. We must first have some clue about what consciousness is, then perhaps we will be able to scientifically explain what love is.

Anyhow, I was using it as an example of something that we can't currently test for, not asserting that it will never be testable. So no, I'm not arguing that it will never be testable.

If we do test, however, it will most likely be a test for the brain activity associated with love, not for the actual qualitative feeling of love. As I've said, we know nearly nothing about what subjective experience is despite all we know being subject to it.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by upquark on Friday March 08, 2013 @01:26PM (#5344884)
As far as science is concerned, there's nothing beyond being able to objectively model a phenomenon and make useful predictions about it. If I can fully model the set of brain processes that humans typically call "love", and if I can make useful and accurate predictions based on my model, that's all that I care about as a scientist.

Now, it's entirely possible that reasoning about "love" scientifically requires several layers of new language / models on top of the currently established models in neuroscience, which is why I said it's _theoretically_ possible.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Friday March 08, 2013 @09:15PM (#5346978)
Subjective experience exists objectively, as in, the subjective experience in your consciousness is an objective reality of the universe. We do not yet know how to model such things, and making useful predictions based in brain activity is great, but it will not be a remotely satisfying model of consciousness.
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @01:56AM (#5336502)
In fairness to Sheldrake, he writes about these ideas, and then goes off to test them. See Seven Experiments that Could Change the World, and his later books which tested the effects.

A meta-analysis has supported the sense of being stared at. I will find the link later and included it. I believe it was in the British Journal of Social Pyschology around 2005.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by pitchups on Thursday March 07, 2013 @03:16AM (#5336697)
Of the seven experiments that Sheldrake describes in his book, the phenomena of dogs (and other pets) knowing when their owners are coming home, has been empirically verified in many instances, and anecdotally verified by thousands of pet owners the world over - and at least a couple of friends. It certainly deserves some serious scientific inquiry rather than being dismissed out-of-hand as "ergo jesus" (as per the blog post above) or woo-woo. His other proposed experiment on phantom limbs and the real pain they can cause, on the other hand (no pun intended) has been fully explained and even solved by neuroscientist V. Ramachandran in his book "Phantoms of the Mind".
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by upquark on Thursday March 07, 2013 @11:13AM (#5338383)
My issue with this sort of unexplained phenomena is that people are willing to jump to ridiculous conclusions that invalidate or at least poke a hole through physics/chemistry/biology/all the other layers of scientific knowledge, vs trying to look for explanations within the established framework of knowledge. The amount of scientific knowledge we've accumulated so far is huge. It's been very thoroughly tested through multiple independent experiments, quantitative relationships have been verified to ridiculous precision.

It's just astronomically more likely that a dog sensing their owner's arrival is going to be explained within the framework of established science, and not invalidate every layer of our model of the world from mammal biology to quantum foam.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @12:06PM (#5338706)
Nobody is suggestion controverting science established through tests, only questioning ideological presumptions.
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by upquark on Thursday March 07, 2013 @08:32PM (#5341620)
A. Plenty of people are suggesting precisely that.

B. I was responding to the parent comment about empirically verified dog's-sixth-sense phenomena, and what I think about those.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @02:37AM (#5336615)
Would love to see that.

I'd add that if one can sense a stare, this opens the door to a huge array of psychic abilities. Perhaps we can communicate more than a stare, perhaps this really all is pseudo-science, experimental bias, and statistical anomaly. I'd like to know.

The mechanism may be as simple as the brain's high sensitivity to electromagnetic fields from other brains, or as mysterious as a cosmic consciousness.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by disgruntledphd2 on Saturday March 09, 2013 @09:46AM (#5348502)
Here you go: http://j-node.homeip.net/wfb/research%20archive/psi/schmidt_...

On a side note, Jessica Utts is wonderful. I actually did my undergraduate thesis on this, but didn't find a significant effect (there was an effect, but the study was underpowered).

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by teamonkey on Thursday March 07, 2013 @03:27AM (#5336719)
If they could truly change the world he should totally follow up on them and test them beyond reasonable doubt. There's potentially seven Nobel prizes in the bag, fame, fortune. Even empirically ruling out those seven ideas would be a worthwhile endeavor.

But, you know, selling books and doing TED talks. Ok. Fine. Whatever.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by aneth4 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @05:36AM (#5337019)
Selling books and TED tools are something all those "legitimate" scientists do as well, including the Nobel prize winners.

He is doing research. I can't say if he's doing enough but he's done quite a lot.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by pitchups on Thursday March 07, 2013 @02:42AM (#5336624)
Another scientist, Dean Radin in his books - "The Conscious Universe" and "Entangled Minds" has compiled a very detailed and persuasive meta-analysis of experiments and phenomena that defy conventional scientific explanations.
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by glhaynes on Friday March 08, 2013 @11:38PM (#5347346)
How many well-respected scientists find it persuasive? Not many, to my understanding.
Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by jonasvp on Thursday March 07, 2013 @01:20AM (#5336420)
Have you heard anything about Sheldrake apart from this blog post? For every one of his hypothesis he provides experiments to test and falsify them.

The problem is that he's already condemned for drawing the "wrong" conclusions so every scientist who even goes near his ideas and tries to test them is ostracized.

Re:TEDx talks discredited: Sheldrake speaks, argues that spe... by j2d3 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @01:20AM (#5336422)
um, he said, even in the part you actually quoted: "...ALMOST every major idea" - so yeah - ALMOST Every...