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Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by danso on Monday February 25, 2013 @12:59PM (#5280378)
I'm disappointed that this post focuses on an incident of groping. Not because the incident is "not a big deal" or that it's isolated, but because it's the type of incident that nearly everyone can agree is beyond the pale and should never be tolerated by society.

Even sexists.

I think the more prevalent problem is the underlying sexism, the institutional bias, the reluctance to speak up, the fear of being judged "the token" -- the fact that a man can think it's appropriate to put his hand on a woman's knee unsolicited is just a blatant, ugly manifestation of the underlying sexism.

I know this post had a little more nuance, but it's hard to come away from it without the impression of: "Women aren't on speaker panels because they're afraid of getting molested". Maybe that's the case (and if so, we as a society have serious issues)...but there's at least an equal problem of women just not being considered or being searched for. And as that problem persists, then women continue to become such a minority at these conferences that the aforementioned creep feels perfectly comfortable with invading a woman's personal space.

Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by lisabarone on Monday February 25, 2013 @01:06PM (#5280426)
I think it's all connected.

There are many reasons you don't see women speaking at tech conferences. Some is because they're passed over as non-members of the boys club. Some is because they don't want to attend and be part of the environment. I've had far worse things happen to be at tech shows - there's one I avoid altogether after being sexually assaulted in a hotel room - but like you said, there's a reason women don't feel comfortable talking about. i don't want to be the "token" harassment case. I don't want to become known for that above anything else I may do. So do I speak up or do I shut up.

That's just as large of an issue as how do I get that creep from putting his hand on knee. Arguably, it's bigger.

Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by danso on Monday February 25, 2013 @01:21PM (#5280559)
Undoubtedly it's all connected in a feedback loop. I guess what I'm simply saying is that the problem of unwanted touching "can be solved" (or at least, ostracized into obscurity), and yet the underlying sexism can persist -- and, in one sense, be affirmed ("Hey I'm can't be a sexist, I never would just touch a random woman) -- and cause the same negative impact: the lack of women participation in conferences and in the tech field (or rather, society in general)
Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by coldtea on Monday February 25, 2013 @01:09PM (#5280439)
>the fact that a man can think it's appropriate to put his hand on a woman's knee unsolicited is just a blatant, ugly manifestation of the underlying sexism.

Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university.

It's like taking the example of a rapist (which this guy sort of is) and extrapolating it to some general trend about everyone.

Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by stcredzero on Monday February 25, 2013 @01:30PM (#5280649)
> Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university.

The big disadvantage about being a "hyper-minority" -- that is, a minority to the extent that you stick out almost like a celebrity would, is that you attract a lot of attention. A group of people might be largely composed of good people. However, someone who is a member of a "hyper-minority" is going to attract a far-disproportionate amount of attention from the most unsavory 0.5% of the group.

> It's like taking the example of a rapist (which this guy sort of is) and extrapolating it to some general trend about everyone.

I don't think that's a fair or constructive way to put the issue. Most men aren't rapists. However, a very small number are, and they can do a disproportionate amount of damage. This was even truer in days past, when society was more permissive about certain kinds of behaviors, and less scrupulous about avoiding unwanted approaches.

It's not a matter of spreading the guilt through the group. It is a matter of encouraging responsibility, however.

Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by steveklabnik on Monday February 25, 2013 @01:37PM (#5280714)
And even if most men aren't rapists, many enable rapists by, for instance, complaining when people say something as basic as "let's not have instances of rape at tech conferences."
Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by stcredzero on Monday February 25, 2013 @02:32PM (#5281150)
A much more succinct way of saying it.
Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by nacker on Monday February 25, 2013 @02:48PM (#5281288)
> even if most men aren't rapists

Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. Or potential rapists. Luckily, they are also obsolete!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-interview-...

Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by lutusp on Monday February 25, 2013 @03:00PM (#5281358)
> Obviously most, if not all men are rapists.

That's Marilyn French's view, as famously quoted from "The Women's Room":

http://www.amazon.com/Womens-Room-Marilyn-French/dp/03453536...

It's also true that to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

> Luckily, they are also obsolete!

Maybe. I personally will suspend judgment until I see women open their own businesses and banks and refuse to do business with men any more.

Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by stcredzero on Monday February 25, 2013 @03:50PM (#5281701)
You're discounting network effects, there.
Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by nacker on Monday February 25, 2013 @05:48PM (#5282414)
>> Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. > >That's Marilyn French's view, as famously quoted from "The Women's Room":

Well, technically:

"At one point in the book the character Val says "all men are rapists". This quote has often been incorrectly attributed to Marilyn French herself. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_French

There's plenty of crazy around the subject, though: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/l...

> Maybe. I personally will suspend judgment until I see women open their own businesses and banks and refuse to do business with men any more.

That will never happen, as the bubble will pop soon. http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.h...

Re:Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up by Mz on Monday February 25, 2013 @01:53PM (#5280851)
Just wondering if you have any thoughts on solving the problem of "institutional bias." It seems to me that specific incidents get focused on because it is a thread to pull so we can start to unravel the whole mess. "Institutional bias" seems like a framing of the problem which makes it harder to find a starting point, not easier. So I am wondering if you have thought about what to do/where to start to solve that.

Thanks.