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Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @03:31PM (#5117467)
A car with triple the gas mileage is yawn-worthy? How out of touch are you? Do you not believe emissions are a serious problem?

1) Eliminate the need for a legislature by using technology to collect votes.

I think you have a serious misunderstanding about government and complex systems in general.

2) Do more for less - find a way to provide today's services for 1/10th the cost.

Sounds great but is a total fantasy. Wildly unrealistic goals are of no use to people that actually get things done.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by tomjen3 on Friday January 25, 2013 @03:46PM (#5117533)
Yes it is boring, it is doable and it doesn't involve the country.

In the sixties getting a man to the moon was an acceptable challenge. More than 50 years later we shouldn't waste ten years of our countries best and most brilliant minds on something like merely better millage.

How a commercially viable replacement for oil, that can be made in the US in a way that doesn't produce CO2? That would do a lot to improve the world is a worthy goal.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by rayiner on Friday January 25, 2013 @03:51PM (#5117561)
I think commercial viable replacement for oil is a great analogue to the moon mission.

1) It's a big goal, but one where the first steps are already being made, just as with the moon mission.

2) It has the potential to develop a ton of derivative technology that is widely applicable.

3) It has the potential to cement American's place for decades more, just like the rocket technology developed as a by-product of the space race did. It was hard to compete militarily with the country that could bomb you from space with ICBM's, and it'll be hard to compete economically that has a source of cheap, clean energy.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by sageikosa on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:02PM (#5117611)
http://www.hcssllc.com/

Done; next challenge?

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:00PM (#5117601)
A couple billion Chinese and Indians are moving up in the world and they aren't going to be riding bicycles. I am as big a fan as any of the moon landing but they didn't even send a geologist. A much better value is had with unmanned probes. Maybe it isn't as sexy but it is infinitely more sensible without a Sputnik type catalyst.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by tomjen3 on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:37PM (#5117808)
It wasn't supposed to be smart, it wasn't to gather scientific evidence, it wasn't to do any of these things.

It was to show the world, once and for all, that communism wasn't better than capitalism.

For that you need a big hairy audacious goal. Better millage isn't one. Cutting the arabs out of the oil deal, saving humanity as we gather the resources needed for a final jump into our future as a spacefaring species -- that is a goal worth of us.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:52PM (#5117891)
>It was to show the world, once and for all, that communism wasn't better than capitalism. For that you need a big hairy audacious goal. Better millage isn't one.

I understand and it achieved its purpose (yay freedom) but now is different. Freedom has won, commies are laughed at, though mildly problematic, and the planet is one, sort of. The problems we face are less epic which makes them seem dull and we should be thankful for that.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by tomjen3 on Saturday January 26, 2013 @04:35AM (#5119875)
The planet is split into essentially three groups: the western world, China and the arab world (Middle-east + large parts of Africa).

China isn't going to attack us, they make far more money trading with us.

The arabs on the other hand.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by SilasX on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:42PM (#5118143)
>A couple billion Chinese and Indians are moving up in the world and they aren't going to be riding bicycles.

But wait, bicycles are more fuel-efficient than even the best cars -- that should imply that the Chinese will want to use them instead, right? Because the problem is as simple as discovering greater fuel efficiency?

Or is this the bizarro world you mocked where higher fuel efficiency is bad?

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @06:10PM (#5118286)
I'm sorry if I offended you with the bizarro comment on the other thread. I have nothing against you and I think we actually on the same side. I read the Wikipedia article you linked to and I understand it. What would you propose? Less efficiency to have more pollution per useful work?
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by SilasX on Friday January 25, 2013 @06:42PM (#5118440)
I'm pretty sure I explained that other policies must complement efficiency improvements, specifically penalizing the bad-thing-you-want-to-reduce e.g. with a tax. So you can ease up on the faux-naive questions -- maybe read the rest of original post that upset your worldview about fuel efficiency.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @06:53PM (#5118489)
The Jevons paradox is sometimes used to argue that energy conservation efforts are futile, for example, that more efficient use of oil will lead to increased demand, and will not slow the arrival or the effects of peak oil. This argument is usually presented as a reason not to impose environmental policies, or to increase fuel efficiency (e.g. if cars are more efficient, it will simply lead to more driving).[7][8] Several points have been raised against this argument. First, in the context of a mature market such as for oil in developed countries, the direct rebound effect is usually small, and so increased fuel efficiency usually reduces resource use, other conditions remaining constant.[6][9][10] Second, even if increased efficiency does not reduce the total amount of fuel used, there remain other benefits associated with improved efficiency. For example, increased fuel efficiency may mitigate the price increases, shortages and disruptions in the global economy associated with peak oil.[11] Third, environmental economists have pointed out that fuel use will unambiguously decrease if increased efficiency is coupled with an intervention (e.g. a green tax) that keeps the cost of fuel use the same or higher.[3]
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by SilasX on Friday January 25, 2013 @07:20PM (#5118587)
>Third, environmental economists have pointed out that fuel use will unambiguously decrease if increased efficiency is coupled with an intervention (e.g. a green tax) that keeps the cost of fuel use the same or higher

Yes, the point I made from the beginning, except that I added that such a policy would make the contest for the supercar superfluous -- it would eliminate all the marginal uses of energy (i.e. where the benefit doesn't exceed the cost + tax) in the first place!

One step above copy-paste is analysis, and one step above that is understanding.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @07:43PM (#5118665)
such a policy would make the contest for the supercar superfluous -- it would eliminate all the marginal uses of energy (i.e. where the benefit doesn't exceed the cost + tax) in the first place!

Love your work YodaBot!

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by cryptoz on Friday January 25, 2013 @03:58PM (#5117590)
> A car with triple the gas mileage is yawn-worthy?

In 10 years? Extremely yawn-worthy. Tesla plans on building a 0 emissions, all-electric car and selling it around $20,000 in two years. Not 10 years with epic, huge pollution going everywhere.

> How out of touch are you? Do you not believe emissions are a serious problem?

How out of touch are you? Obviously emissions are a serious problem. That's why we shouldn't aspire as a country to be emitting gigantic amounts of greenhouse gasses from our cars in 10 years.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:02PM (#5117612)
An electric car is essentially coal powered.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by cryptoz on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:06PM (#5117636)
No, it's not. That doesn't make any sense at all, especially in the context of my example. Teslas that are charged with the SuperCharger system are solar powered. Teslas that are purchased in my province (Quebec) are Hydro powered. Electric cars charged from coal power plants are still a dramatic improvement to the system, despite having a terrible pollutant in the charge somewhere.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:34PM (#5117786)
> Electric cars charged from coal power plants are still a dramatic improvement to the system, despite having a terrible pollutant in the charge somewhere.

Maybe you are referring to clean coal technology which I am dubious of, but I think it is unlikely that tranferring cheap electric power across great distance is more efficient.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by jordan0day on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:15PM (#5117674)
Sometimes. It depends on what part of the world you're in.

If your statement is meant to imply that electric cars are a bad idea because they're "essentially coal powered", I disagree. Imagine if doctors applied that kind of logic: "We'll, you could quit smoking, but, I mean, you're still going to die eventually anyway."

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @06:02PM (#5118247)
I did not mean to imply that electric cars were a bad idea, a friend tried to buy a Tesla Roadster and I was excited to drive it. I just meant it will not be a panacea in two years or even ten, but almost certainly eventually.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by SilasX on Friday January 25, 2013 @03:56PM (#5117580)
>A car with triple the gas mileage is yawn-worthy? How out of touch are you? Do you not believe emissions are a serious problem?

Of course they are, but increasing efficiency is only loosely related to that, due to Jevons Effects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Having more efficient (and probably phallic shaped) vehicles could reduce aggregate emissions ... or, more likely, the lower cost of driving could increase how often it's done.

Unless the newer efficiency is combined with laws that make emissions directly more costly, you're ultimately just bailing from one side of the pool to the other.

But then, if you're going to put those laws in place, then you don't need to reward any one specific technology's creation; you've already incentivized (sorry) any emission-reducing change in behavior, which is a far longer list than any bureaucrat or contest-creator can come up with. Unless, of course, you think that we're going to have separate contests for "make the average distance of worker from workplace less than one mile" or "make average driving distance less than 11k miles/person-year", etc etc etc.

Projects like the "car with ultra-high gas mileage" are instances of a very unproductive mentality when it comes to responsible environmental stewardship: it's a mentality that, stripped of misdirection, says "it's okay to be wasteful, as long as you're wasteful with efficient technology".

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:44PM (#5117843)
>Projects like the "car with ultra-high gas mileage" are instances of a very unproductive mentality when it comes to responsible environmental stewardship

This is an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good. To a partisan all pragmatism is bad.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by SilasX on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:09PM (#5117977)
It's more like "feel-good being the enemy of the good". Without other good policies, a more efficient car has ~zero expected benefit. With the other good policies, the more efficient car is marginally relevant.

Pure, unadulterated feel-good-ism.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:31PM (#5118086)
Better fuel efficiency is bad. Welcome to bizarro world!
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by SilasX on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:39PM (#5118131)
The bizarro world where improved efficiency of coal use led to more coal use, rather than people miraculously keeping the same pattern of behavior despite the increased utility of using coal?

The bizarro world where nobody ever increases their fuel use in response to its greater effectiveness of use?

The bizarro world where people can feel like they've said something insightful simply because they're advocating greater fuel efficiency regardless of how poorly they understand the system in which it operates?

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:48PM (#5118182)
Apparently less efficiency would be better. I think we're done here.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by ori_b on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:59PM (#5118234)
If your goal is purely to reduce amount of oil being burned, then making it impractically expensive to use oil-burning machines works. Making them extremely inefficient is one way to go about this.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @06:30PM (#5118391)
Making things inefficient is for corrupt officials.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by SilasX on Friday January 25, 2013 @06:43PM (#5118446)
You're certainly done thinking carefully about the issue, and have been for a while...
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by rayiner on Friday January 25, 2013 @03:47PM (#5117539)
> I think you have a serious misunderstanding about government and complex systems in general.

Careful. Around here that kind of talk will get you labeled a statist. In reality society is simple and self-governing, if only government gets out of the way! Also: ponies.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by smokeyj on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:01PM (#5117605)
Defensive statist is defensive.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by sageikosa on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:00PM (#5117597)
No. Society is complex and self-governing, which is why injecting government can only make anything more complicated and expensive.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:15PM (#5117676)
While I agree with you to some extent I am not quite ready to be an anarchist, if only for my grandmother's sake. I do believe that the founders of this country deliberately designed it to be mostly gridlocked to try to avoid the worst parts of government.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by sageikosa on Friday January 25, 2013 @11:03PM (#5119200)
I did not claim to endorse anarchism. The extent that government can be injected into society is limited by the cost of doing so. If government is everywhere (like it pretty much is or is expanding towards) then it will consume pretty much everything.

If you want to preserve "vital" functions of government, then you need to establish what those are and scrape off anything that is both an expense, and interfering with society.

Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by rayiner on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:32PM (#5117773)
That's the middle school "checks and balances" view. There is a lot more to it than that. The U.S. government was a desperate reaction to the the ineffective government under the Articles of Confederation. Indeed, the federalists would have made it even stronger if they thought the states would have ratified it.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:29PM (#5118078)
Are you arguing my point or conceding it?
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by rayiner on Friday January 25, 2013 @05:48PM (#5118183)
I'm disagreeing that the founders intended the government to be gridlocked.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @06:18PM (#5118323)
Well I disagree with you there, I think it is quite apparent that is what they meant. I also believe that freedom of religion was meant to be used as a catchall freedom. It hasn't yet, but maybe it will later.
Re:Entrepreneur’s Letter to Obama: Give Americans a Great Ch... by youngerdryas on Friday January 25, 2013 @04:05PM (#5117629)
Ponies?