News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by cardamomo on Saturday January 19, 2013 @02:59PM (#5084544)
This is a very intelligent, informed summary of the mounting case against the prosecutors. The author minces no words when describing Ortiz' and Heymann's strategy of charging Swartz with a battery of preposterous charges with the express intent of making any action except accepting a plea bargain (and thereby pleading guilty to all charges) the only reasonable approach: "[T]hey assumed that the risk of their success even on bogus charges would be enough to pressure Swartz into accepting a guilty plea on all the counts in exchange for a reduced sentence — which is what they offered him."

But what raises the deepest concern when I read this article is that the author continues on to describe Swartz's case not as a particularly bad example of prosecutorial oppression but rather as an exemplar of justice in the United States: "The process was fundamentally corrupt and shameful. But observers of the American criminal-justice system also know that it was a common one."

What can we do about this?

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by pvaldes on Saturday January 19, 2013 @04:51PM (#5084920)
"The process was fundamentally corrupt and shameful. But observers of the American criminal-justice system also know that it was a common one."

And it seems to be pretty common,

This is another example, a marine biologist bullied and with her life destroyed for "feed the whales". The history and treatment of this girl by another "Ortiz" really sucks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083331/Marine-biolo...

"Ms Black could receive a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a half million dollars in fines. Each of the feeding charges carries a maximum penalty of a year in prison and a $100,000 fine."

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by pvaldes on Saturday January 19, 2013 @04:58PM (#5084941)
After six long years of accusations and demands that Nancy plead guilty to crimes she did not commit, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) out of Washington, D.C., went before a secret grand jury. Without any opportunity for Nancy or her attorneys to present evidence or cross-examine the prosecutor's witnesses, the DOJ attorneys obtained on January 4, 2012 an indictment charging Nancy with two felonies and two misdemeanors in the process of doing her research on orcas and operating a whale-watching boat.
Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by twoodfin on Saturday January 19, 2013 @09:22PM (#5085706)
You apparently don't know very much about how the criminal justice system in this country works: All indictments come from "secret" grand juries where only the prosecutor presents a case.
Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by emkemp on Sunday January 20, 2013 @04:48PM (#5088395)
Adding to twoodfin's comment: Grand Jury sessions are not meant to be trials, and do not consider whether a felony allegation can be proved "beyond a reasonable doubt." Instead they address whether there is "probable cause" that a felony has occurred.
Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by pvaldes on Sunday January 20, 2013 @07:21PM (#5088983)
I'm not familiarised with the laws in your country, but I CAN see from here how the history sucks in large ammounts

I copy here a few more notes written about this case:

"Note that after six years of investigation and who knows how many taxpayer dollars down the hole, the DOJ is neither charging Nancy with harassing any whale on October 12, 2005, or any date since then. The indictment does not even allege that Nancy harassed any whale" (http://www.nancyblacklegaldefense.org/charges.htm)

Uh oh, "Ortiz boy/girl" in charge, you are shorting of ideas, think quickly...

Thanks god, whe have the 1001!

"When federal prosecutors can't muster enough evidence to bring charges against a person suspected of a crime, they can still use a controversial law to get a conviction anyway: They charge the person with lying.

The law against lying--known in legal circles simply as "1001"--makes it a crime to knowingly make a material false statement in matters of federal jurisdiction. Critics across the political spectrum argue that 1001, a widely used statute in the federal criminal code, is open to abuse. It is charged hundreds of times a year..."

...Nancy Black, a marine biologist and operator of whale-watching boats, recently became ensnared by 1001. When one of her boat captains whistled at a humpback whale that approached the boat a few years ago, regulators investigated whether the incident constituted harassment of a whale, which is illegal.

This past January (2012), Ms. Black was charged in the case--not with whale harassment, but with lying about the incident. She also faces a charge of illegally altering a video of the whale encounter, as well as unrelated allegations involving whale blubber. Together, the charges carry up to 20 years in prison. She denies all wrongdoing, including lying..."

This is is taken from an article in the Wall Street Journal about the aplication of 1001 to targets like Nancy when all other charges failed... ("For feds lying is a handy charge, Emshwiller and Fields)".

I strongly recommend its complete lecture to all interested in the Aaron's case. It is terrifying.

"...the law is so vague that harmless misstatements can be turned into federal felonies."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230329960457732...

link to the PDF (in case the other link fails) http://www.nancyblacklegaldefense.org/For%20Feds,%20%27Lying...

In short:

This IS a shame, to ask 20 years for "edit a video" is indecent, abusive and ridiculous, and somebody had to say it.

I hope never, ever, to have a law like this in my own country. To me, It's like a sort of legal torture to crush a target and force a confession, even from innocent people, and must be stopped.

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by polemic on Saturday January 19, 2013 @03:25PM (#5084622)
This.

While Ortiz will be the convenient (and rightful, I suppose) scapegoat in this instance, she's a symptom of the problem and not the cause. There are far more fundamental problems with the DoJ, and until they're addressed (time and cost of mounting a defence, overly aggressive prosecutions, lack of oversight and discretion), nothing will change.

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by tunesmith on Saturday January 19, 2013 @03:39PM (#5084666)
I know that "don't treat the symptoms! treat the root cause!" is a common, almost unassailable sentiment, but lately I've been thinking there are problems with it.

In order for it to be completely ineffective to "treat the symptom", it rests on the assumption that successfully treating the symptom will have zero effect on the cause behind it.

A good example of that is taking pain meds to mask the pain of a knee injury. So then you go and run on it, and it makes the knee injury worse. You treated the symptom, and nothing changed.

But there are definitely examples where treating the symptom does help. For instance, someone is temporarily depressed because of a unresolved situation in their lives. And yet, they cannot address the situation because the depression is in the way. So, they take an anti-depressant, and then maybe they can resolve their root cause, and then maybe they can go off the anti-depressant.

Someone like an Ortiz, yes, is a symptom of a deeper problem. But I'm not convinced it is like the pain in a knee, where treating it will make zero difference. A bum knee isn't exacerbated by the pain. But the system may be exacerbated by Ortiz. A bum knee doesn't become a bit less bum from witnessing the taking of a pain med. But if the system recognizes an Ortiz downfall and receives a data point of what "going to far" is, then maybe that would have an effect.

Probably not a sufficient effect, probably not enough, but I'm just pointing out that the fact that Ortiz is a symptom, is not, by itself, sufficient reason to believe that "nothing will change". Also not sufficient reason to believe that the symptom should not be treated.

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by dhimes on Saturday January 19, 2013 @04:00PM (#5084725)
I agree with your point, but treating the symptom must be done in such a way that the problem is still seen to be a problem. Another case in point was when the banking collapse hit, 'leaders' blamed things like 'excess greed' and so on, and dodged the real problem (IMHO).

I'm afraid of throwing Ortiz to the wolves, washing our hands and saying, "Well, that's that."

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by praptak on Saturday January 19, 2013 @04:19PM (#5084788)
This could have a somewhat chilling effect on other prosecutors although obviously only in cases against people who are somewhat popular or at least have the potential to become so. Poor people without outspoken friends would still get screwed. And the incentives for the prosecutors to "score big" would still remain.
Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by pekk on Saturday January 19, 2013 @05:12PM (#5084986)
What was 'the real problem' with the collapse, in your view?
Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by dhimes on Sunday January 20, 2013 @08:02AM (#5086775)
People smarter than I will have to figure that out. I'm talking about fairly soon after, before any investigation, we had politicians (McCain, for one) blaming "excess greed." I think this is a straw-man. The people in that job get paid to be greedy. You can't blame that, you have at least recognize that a system (regulations and work flow) is broken if it is so obtuse that people can't even know what decisions are in their own best interest.
Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by tunesmith on Sunday January 20, 2013 @04:34PM (#5088346)
I actually sort of see this as a real-life tragedy of the commons situation, although you kind of have to squint your eyes and wave your hands a bit to make it fit.

The "common resource" is the client opportunity. The Nash equilibrium is every employee maximizing their own bonuses. The group optimum is the health of the company. It turned out that the individual self-interest did not align to what was good for the health of the companies. And in fact, that if they had cooperated and worked for the health of the companies, the employees may have ended up with higher individual payouts. This is exactly what the tragedy of the commons is about, and it's what apparently shook Greenspan to his core. So basically, it was the (predicted (over and over again)) failure of Objectivism.

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by dhimes on Sunday January 20, 2013 @10:10PM (#5089628)
That's an interesting take. I always thought that they didn't know that their actions would result in such disaster.

I worry about the same non-effect with the gun-law blitz we're seeing after Sandy Hook. I worry that we're not attacking the problem- which may have more to do with mental health issues than gun laws.

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by btilly on Saturday January 19, 2013 @04:06PM (#5084739)
I only partially agree.

My personal belief is that when prosecutors know that there is a chance of cases blowing up and destroying their careers, as is happening here, they have an incentive to be careful. And likely will be more careful for some time. This is a good thing - even if it helps much less than fixing the system.

That is why in many, many corporate cultures there is an effective policy of responding to problems by publicly identifying a scapegoat and throwing the book at them. It is an easy action that makes a marginal difference for a short time.

So this is better than nothing. Unfortunately it is not very good. First of all the deterrent effect is only temporary. Secondly you get two-tiered justice where defendants who seem likely to have the potential to raise such a firestorm of protest are more protected than defendants who don't. Thirdly the identification of a scapegoat relieves pressure to come up with a better fix.

Therefore I am modestly in support of the current corrective process. I would like to see something better. I will encourage better things. I know the shortcomings of scapegoating. However it is better than nothing. If this is all that this case is likely to achieve, it was still a somewhat useful response.

Re:Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out by fatbird on Saturday January 19, 2013 @04:45PM (#5084894)
Urge your congressperson to support Lofgren's law as it stands. That would do one thing, which is defang the law they were using to bully Swartz.