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Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by sarchertech on Thursday November 12, 2026 @04:11PM (#50474335)
There is new data center project 30 miles outside my city that plans to build a 1000MW natural gas power plant and a 500MW biomass plant that will take millions of acres of forest to sustain (to quite the developer it will burn 350-500 truckloads of logs per day).

If this is an example of the kind of buildout we want to streamline, I say no thanks.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by detourdog on Thursday November 12, 2026 @04:21PM (#50474460)
My town just found out about the forest service’s intent to do some major logging and the truck traffic is way out of spec to the existing roads to the trees.

The scale the data centers want to operate at maybe way out of spec. to the existing infrastructure.

https://www.iberkshires.com/story/84456/Town-Residents-Conce...

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by whimsicalism on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:32PM (#50475320)
so from the article, 200 truck trips over 5 years.

we're honestly screwed as a country, funny to see.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by detourdog on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:22PM (#50476436)
This an ancient road when it turns to dirt that’s VT. The Massachusetts is paved but as the town head of DPW is worried about the weight of the trucks. This road happens to not meet the town standards for construction of new development.
Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by cucumber3732842 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:29PM (#50477343)
How manny times does the snow plow go down that road in the same 5yr period? What's the axle group loading for a snow plow? The same federal maximum as the log truck you say?

The prevalence of dirt roads in VT is an intentional policy decision.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by detourdog on Thursday November 12, 2026 @11:01PM (#50478117)
The snow plow is seasonal traffic and not nearly as long or heavy as a million trees. The biggest connecting road has a commercial limit of 2.5 tons.

The snow plow as two axles

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by cucumber3732842 on Friday November 13, 2026 @08:08AM (#50482986)
I have no sympathy for a bunch of retired New Yorkers who wouldn't pony up for some asphalt because it didn't fit the "rustic theme" they envisioned for their state.
Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by detourdog on Friday November 13, 2026 @10:31AM (#50484991)
Not asking for sympathy asking for money for road usage.

Didn't describe that population at all. EMT, Nurses, college professors, generational farmers, trades people. The main point is why should the town be burdened with the cost. The road satisfies the community needs. Vermont gave up on their side of the road when the commercial roads were developed 3/4 of mile over. The forest service should budget for the impact on the local roads.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by cucumber3732842 on Friday November 13, 2026 @01:03PM (#50487291)
>Didn't describe that population at all. EMT, Nurses, college professors, generational farmers, trades people.

Sure sounds like a service economy that feeds upon retirement and tourism money to me....(I know what they look like, I grew up in one)

>The main point is why should the town be burdened with the cost. The road satisfies the community needs. Vermont gave up on their side of the road when the commercial roads were developed 3/4 of mile over. The forest service should budget for the impact on the local roads.

I don't care exactly who winds up holding the bag but when you drive from literally anywhere bordering Vermont into Vermont it's pretty clear what the level of investment in transportation infrastructure is. And this infighting over how some petty amount of truck traffic is gonna destroy a dirt road is exactly what's downhill of that under-investment.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by celtain on Thursday November 12, 2026 @04:45PM (#50474766)
One of the perverse things about our current permitting regime is that it's often easier for a company to build a private natural gas power plant connected to their data center than it is for the local utility to build a new wind or solar farm. The former can often be done without any kind of discretionary permit at all, whereas the latter goes through a public process in which residents can complain and sue to block the project.

And both are much easier than getting permits for a high voltage transmission line to another region of the country where it might make more sense to build a wind or solar farm.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by whimsicalism on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:29PM (#50475290)
Biomass is almost certainly a better form of energy production than whatever your existing energy mix is and it is being villanized, nice.
Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by Micrococonut on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:57PM (#50475616)
Better how?
Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by whimsicalism on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:58PM (#50475625)
More sustainable/co2 neutral/renewable.
Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by Symbiote on Thursday November 12, 2026 @06:19PM (#50475827)
Farmed trees are often promoted as being a great fuel, but they do very, very little for enhancing biodiversity.

The UK's largest CO₂ emitter is an ex-coal now-biomass powerplant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drax_Power_Station

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday November 12, 2026 @06:37PM (#50476003)
> Farmed trees are often promoted as being a great fuel, but they do very, very little for enhancing biodiversity.

Wind turbines and hydroelectric dams don't do much for enhancing biodiversity either, which is fine because their purpose is to generate electricity.

> The UK's largest CO₂ emitter is an ex-coal now-biomass powerplant

Only by counting burning biomass as emitting new CO2 while not counting the CO2 it removed from the air from being grown.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by sarchertech on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:34PM (#50476532)
That only counts if you grow the trees explicitly for power generation. Burning trees that already existed (as is the plan for the plant I mentioned) is like burning coal, which also removed CO2 from the air in the past.
Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:47PM (#50476650)
Trees are part of the active carbon cycle. They grow while taking in CO2, then die and rot while releasing it again. Burning them does the same thing as the second one, which was going to happen on its own.

Coal isn't part of the active carbon cycle. It would stay locked in the ground indefinitely if you didn't dig it up.

Moreover, that plant appears to get getting biomass as compressed pellets from sawmill scrap wood and sawdust, i.e. it's the refuse from trees that were already being logged to make lumber. If they didn't burn it then it would go into a landfill to rot and release the carbon anyway.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by sarchertech on Thursday November 12, 2026 @08:11PM (#50476808)
That’s not the plant I’m referring to plans to do. They’re planning to bring in 350-500 logging trucks per day.

Sure they will get sawmill scraps if they can, but if built this will be by far the largest biomass reactor in the country. When I did the math there’s not enough available scrap in the entire country to power this thing.

They’ve explicitly stated that they need 5.5 million tons of timber from the surround 250 miles of forest annually.

>Burning them does the same thing as the second one, which was going to happen on its own.

Over 50-100 years for short lived species. And much longer for longer lived species.

So yes better than coal but over the lifetime of anyone alive today it’s essentially the same thing, so it’s only really better than coal if you are looking 100 years into the future and if you stop doing cutting down existing trees at some point.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday November 12, 2026 @08:50PM (#50477073)
> When I did the math there’s not enough available scrap in the entire country to power this thing.

Which tracks since it's in England and they're getting pellets from the US, Canada and Europe.

> Over 50-100 years for short lived species. And much longer for longer lived species.

But who is logging old growth trees for biomass?

In if someone is cutting down a tree in a first world country it's generally either because the tree was grown intending to cut it down and they immediately start growing new trees there, or because it's going to be cut down regardless of what you do with the tree because they're removing it in order to make some other use of the land.

Moreover, you can always find that one asshat doing something ridiculous, but the world also generates a lot of scrap wood or cuts down a lot of trees just to clear the land. Burning them to generate electricity is never going to be large proportion of world power generation, but doing it to the extent that the trees were just going to rot anyway seems pretty hard to object to.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by sarchertech on Thursday November 12, 2026 @11:07PM (#50478159)
The plant that I was talking about when starting this thread plans on harvesting 5.5 million tons of timber per year.

That’s not all that much unused wood scrap, so if you’re building a large biomass plant you’re going to end up harvesting timber.

> In if someone is cutting down a tree in a first world country it's generally either because the tree was grown intending to cut it down and they immediately start growing new trees there, or because it's going to be cut down regardless of what you do with the tree because they're removing it in order to make some other use of the land.

In Europe maybe. In the US and Canada it’s very common to harvest timber from naturally grown forests (vs managed plantations) that are being cut primarily for the timber.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by sarchertech on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:40PM (#50476596)
The majority of our power comes from 2 nuclear plants nearby, 8 hydro dams, and renewables. We also have one of the largest pumped storage hydro facilities a few miles away.

A biomass plant harvesting existing timber would only be better if the alternative were building a new coal plant.

This isn’t replacing anything though. We don’t need an extra 1.5GW, so if this project doesn’t go through the alternative will be that we continue moving towards more solar and wind.

Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by whimsicalism on Thursday November 12, 2026 @08:37PM (#50476995)
Sounds like Tennessee Valley Authority, in which case 50% of your energy mix is fossil fuels and 0% of the biomass plant is fossil fuel and the incremental effect is potentially negative on atmospheric carbon.
Re:Data centers need power – lower income, rural residents p... by sarchertech on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:13PM (#50477701)
It’s 46% and it’s irrelevant if it’s not replacing any existing power generation.

There is more excess data center power demand than there is capability to build plants over the next 10 years, so if this plant isn’t built the likely result is 1 less data center and not releasing carbon from 5.5 million tons of timber per year.