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Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by soVeryTired on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:35PM (#50344130)
At this point it's either wrong or meaningless to call LLMs "next token predictors". Yes, pretraining involves predicting the next token. But after that you're in the world of RLHF, RLVR, and other post-training.

A model is _sort of_ designed to predict the next token in a string of text. But it's equally accurate to say it's designed to edit code until it passes a suite of unit tests.

Yes, they generate sequentially, so "next token predictor" isn't technically incorrect (which is why I chose the word "meaningless"). But it's pretty clear there's a mechanism inside them that allows them to "plan" what they generate. I might as well call you a next word predictor.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by ghosty141 on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:41PM (#50344212)
My understanding is that the underlying part is a next token predictor and that's what is "actually" editing the code but the part that decides what to do (to achieve a successful unit test result for example) is a mix of all the things including post training.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by Vaushite on Monday November 02, 2026 @08:04PM (#50346633)
It's all a next token predictor, which is trained at first to predict the next token. RLVR etc. are also training the next token predictor.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by hypfer on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @02:22AM (#50349062)
I think what breaks people's minds is just how far one gets with probabilistic approaches.

Which is interesting, given that life itself is merely that. It's just that humans decided that that ain't good enough and invented something alien to nature - logic.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by jgilias on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:42PM (#50344228)
Yes, I didn’t mean that literally. Since “attention is all you need” it’s more like “predict the full output in full for this blob of input text”. That doesn’t change the “wtf is going on with the weight understanding bit” in what I wrote.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by libraryofbabel on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:32PM (#50344949)
> it’s more like “predict the full output in full for this blob of input text"

Hm. I would actually go so far as to say "predict" is just the wrong word to use in 2026, as it drags in a picture of what LLMs are that's from the pre RLVR era, and which is frequently used to suggest they have all sorts of limitations that they've now surpassed ("an LLM will never solve a major open mathematics problem, they're just predicting tokens"). These days I tend to use the more neutral phrase "generate the next token"; I'd only say "predict" in the technical context of (say) the pre-training part of the training run where the object is indeed to minimize the cross-entropy loss function by predicting next tokens in existing text. Generating a token with a modern LLM is better described as something like, "given the totality of its training, including not just next token prediction with pre-training but also solving vast numbers of math and coding problems with RLVR, the LLM generates tokens one by one."

Anyhow. I'm not sure the weight understanding is all that strange. (It's impressive, but so are many thing LLMs do these days.) LLMs are very very good at coding and math problems, of which this is one, and in particular, their RLVR training presumably includes many tasks involving neural networks. It's amazing and impressive, I agree, but I'd say less amazing than proving major open theorems in mathematics, which we already know they can do.

[dead]
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by robotresearcher on Monday November 02, 2026 @09:38PM (#50347303)
‘Predict’ still works if you think of it as ‘predict what a knowledgeable human would say in this context’.

Substitute ‘generate’ and the meaning is unchanged.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by jdub on Monday November 02, 2026 @09:39PM (#50347306)
The generation is done by... prediction. It is making a guess based on weights (statistical likelihood) plus a pinch of wobbliness.

It's worth reflecting on the original domain jargon for selecting the next token: completion.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by libraryofbabel on Monday November 02, 2026 @11:31PM (#50348094)
I know how LLMs work. I understand the output projection and logits and sampling just fine. I don't think we should call what is happening prediction because it is a misleading term with a lot of baggage associated with claims that LLMs are just statistically modeling language and "guessing" tokens without any internal representation of meaning. Since your reply is very short I can't tell whether you mean it in that sense or not.

And yes, I understand "prediction" is a standard term in the field. I just think it is a bad one and we should stop using it.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by voidhorse on Monday November 02, 2026 @11:24PM (#50348046)
It's still prediction executed by a statistical model. Even RL models are just predicting what the training gauntlet taught them the trainers want to see, in terms of typical behavior.

This doesn't make it any less fascinating that by combining this basic "do as I say" training with massive amounts of all of humanity's data, you can solve major problems—that is still incredible. But that doesn't fundamentally change what is going on, mechanistically.

I don't understand these pseudo-religious desires to read into models something "more" than what we know. We built them. We don't go around making wild claims about how cars are actually more than just a mechanical system, how they aren't just taking us places—we do, but usually such points are cultural not about the mechanica capabilities of cars. People in the LLM space seem to be constantly conflating these two views. It's entirely accurate to say, on the one hand, next token predictors combined with RL, and massive troves of existing human work, can solve culturally interesting problems, and to hold, on the other hand, that mechanistically what is happening is statistical next token predictions over global linguistic space and more or less "monkey see monkey do".

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by lifeisloving on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:36PM (#50345016)
Its a stateless function that takes in x amount of words and calculates logits. It is in fact s next token predictor. Its literally nothing more than that.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by coldtea on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:46PM (#50345112)
Is there literally anything more than some basic underlying mechanisms combining in how anything in the universe operates?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by lifeisloving on Monday November 02, 2026 @06:31PM (#50345720)
I think existance, biology and consciousness or whatever you want to label these things is much more mysterious than statistics.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by ecnahc515 on Monday November 02, 2026 @07:26PM (#50346299)
Isn't most of our current understanding of how life on earth came to be (eg: primordial soup, hydrothermal vents, etc), natural evolution, all basically "just statistics"? They all require the correct "setup" (time, location, etc), but in a large enough universe, it's _statistically_ likely (mediocrity principle) and "just statistics" again, right?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by voidhorse on Monday November 02, 2026 @11:07PM (#50347939)
Well yeah, that's tautologous because statistics is a mathematical abstraction. Everything, viewed a certain way, is "statistics". Just like everything, viewed a certain way, is "physics". And everything, viewed a certain way, is "narrative".

Mathematics models the world, it does not have substance. It is a useful way of looking and a useful way of manipulating, but many models are equally useful. Capital T Truth, beyond models is very difficult to get at. We can show that things are true for certain models well enough. Showing that something is true in all models (a universal truth) is far more difficult. You face incommensurability.

I see a lot of people in technology fall into this extremely basic logical fallacy called Reification constantly.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by swid on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @02:38AM (#50349163)
Do you believe in a soul? It’s fine if you do, but I don’t, and I don’t understand how people can reject the notion of soul and still say things like this.

I mean, when you really get down to it, either the particles and such operate on very specific rules, and the rules govern how all our brain and body work. Followed to the conclusion, the universe is computable and we can simulate life.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by soVeryTired on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @05:10AM (#50350087)
That sounds like a next token generator to me, which I think is more accurate. The word "predict" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your formulation. What exactly is being predicted?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by checkyoursudo on Monday November 02, 2026 @07:07PM (#50346142)
It is not clear that there is a mechanism that allows them to plan anything. It is clear there is nothing of the sort.

You can demonstrate definitively that there nothing other than "next token prediction" by running the same inference engine/model/prompt/settings multiple times in a row on the same hardware at temp 0 with a seed set.

If you turn the temp up, then you might let the "mechanism" select pseudorandomly from a probability distribution of k-likely tokens with minimum p-cumulative probability. Even then, if the next token has a very high probability, deviation will be uncommon.

I just performed this experiment right now on a few dozen runs of a dense model at thousands of tokens of output at temp 0, and all were identical. Then I did it with a MOE model, which might get some benefit of picking different experts each time. Nope. Outputs were again identical.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by p-e-w on Monday November 02, 2026 @07:53PM (#50346530)
> You can demonstrate definitively that there nothing other than "next token prediction" by running

Describing LLMs as next token predictors isn’t incorrect, it’s meaningless. It’s the equivalent of describing brains as “a bunch of atoms”.

The problem with these descriptions is that they say nothing about high-level capabilities. If you can predict the next token in a proof of the Riemann hypothesis, then you can prove the Riemann hypothesis.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by tonyarkles on Monday November 02, 2026 @08:18PM (#50346754)
In a similar vein, if the string of "next tokens" based on 300k input tokens is: "run this bash command and paste the results into the token stream", followed by another call that includes the output of that bash output giving "Based on the output from that bash command, now run head -n 30 /foo/bar/baz.txt and paste it here", finally followed by "Based on that, here's the problem with your systemd configuration: [...]"

The part that really bakes my noodle: `/foo/bar/baz.txt` can be a filename that no one has ever typed before, the error inside the file can be a typo that no one has ever typed before, and it will still correctly "predict the next token" to solve your problem.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by voidhorse on Monday November 02, 2026 @11:15PM (#50347990)
I don't think that's true and I don't think your comparison is accurate.

In the case of the brain, it'd be more akin to the reduction of the brain to just the neuronal dynamics (obviously experience phenomenally is much more than that to us!)

But both views can be useful, depending on what you are trying to understand.

The problem with these arguments is that people pick and choose based on their persons preferences. People who are in love with LLMs will, on the LLM side, argue against reductionism "they are way more than next token predictors!" then they'll turn around and equally try to argue "the substrate doesn't matter! The brain is "just" neurons and digital activity so of course we can replicate it!" (this is also incorrect, btw, the brain is also an analog system, even in its electrical connections and not just in its chemistry)

The on the other side the anti LLM crew will do the opposite (launch into reductionism when it comes to LLMs, resist it when it comes to humans). I'm a human being and I like humans and I think people have adopted a strange view of LLMs, which are a tool and should be treated as such, so I tend to side with the humans. The stalwart defenders of LLM honor that would balk at any attempt to reduce them in stature to what they fundamentally are, mechanistically, are... an odd bunch. I'm confused why people are so passionate about it. If someone told me "well your IDE is just a fancy AST walker" yeah I think that is a dumb take but I wouldn't feel like I had to argue against such a take either saying "no! no! it's so much more!"

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by Nevermark on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @12:37AM (#50348489)
I think the point was meant to be more simple and broad:

A system is not just its little bits.

Where "system" and "little bits" can be just about anything. But people endlessly repeat this mistake, and it has been a go-to misunderstanding/misrepresentation for a lot of people on this forum.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by 8note on Monday November 02, 2026 @08:44PM (#50346920)
unless you are doing something where you stay in latent space without having a random number generator pick a word, the next token predictor part still matters. without making the tokes concrete in between, that plan doesnt exist

if it was designed to edit code, id expect the first translation from latent space out to tokens to be the final code, not be assembling the code by random number generator.

its not really designed to edit code until the tests succeed, we try to manipulate the distribution of tokens to predict by prompt engineering with the test results.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by jdub on Monday November 02, 2026 @09:33PM (#50347271)
"next token predictor" has always referred to inference, not training. Training steps produce and bend weights, inference predicts tokens based on those weights.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by mycall on Monday November 02, 2026 @10:04PM (#50347500)
> "next token predictor" has always referred to inference

Going back to first principles, wikipedia mentions [0] inference as:

> "Inferences are steps in logical reasoning, moving from premises to logical consequences. Inference is traditionally divided into deduction and induction"

Is that exactly what next token predictor means?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by ToValueFunfetti on Monday November 02, 2026 @10:33PM (#50347721)
The 'predictor' part referred to the fact that base models would effectively answer the question "what token is most likely next". Training away from that default behavior doesn't escape the technical meaning of those words- answering "what token is most likely next in a solution to Navier Stokes" is still predicting a next token- but at that point the label just means it outputs text serially.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by voidhorse on Monday November 02, 2026 @11:34PM (#50348115)
> A model is _sort of_ designed to predict the next token in a string of text. But it's equally accurate to say it's designed to edit code until it passes a suite of unit tests.

Training is not design. Design is the mechanism, namely a statistical method of learning distributions, and of executing those distributions computationally as an IO function.

The model is not designed to write unit tests. It is trained to do so, i.e. the distribution learned and reinforced is one such that it maps the I distribution to the O distribution that is what human beings typically do or want when writing unit tests. The design is the suite of algorithms used for this (which is ultimately global next token prediction)

I think you are conflating design (the mechanics) with their cultural or user level function.

You are basically saying "my bike isn't just rotating wheels on a frame because it takes me places". Hopefully you can see how both parts of that statement are true and why contrasting them as if the first clause is somehow false or inaccurate is incorrect.

Both these are true statements. They operate at different levels. People are constantly conflating these levels in the "is it a next token predictor" (the answer is yes) debate.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by soVeryTired on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @05:08AM (#50350083)
Yeah, fine. I was using the word design loosely. I'd also happily say something like "humans are designed to like salt and fat" and feel like that was a pretty reasonable statement, even though humans aren't designed either.