News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:04AM (#4969411)
$40,000 a year for a job where you "sometimes" work 15 hour days and have to get up at 4AM doesn't actually sound that great.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by michael_miller on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:20AM (#4969485)
You're living in a bubble! A good portion of students can't find any job after graduation, let alone a crappy one. The job isn't even that crappy: $40k a year goes a long way in Montana. Wolfram Alpha says the cost of living in NYC is 2.06x what it is in Billings, Montana. Earning the equivalent of 80k NYC dollars is not a bad gig, even if it means working like a dog (isn't that what i-bankers do?).
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by LargeWu on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @02:19PM (#4970438)
Having grown up in western ND, I keep myself pretty well informed on the situation in the oil fields.

First of all, Billings is nowhere near any of the current or probable future oil activity. The cost of living in Billings is irrelevant. In fact, it is likely that, unless you own a house already, the cost of living in or near the active oil activity actually exceeds New York City. Rent for a house or apartment can run several thousands of dollars, if you can even find one. There are entire families living year-round in camper trailers, and paying $1500/mo for the privilege of parking it somewhere. Or, you can live in a man-camp, which while cheaper, is basically the equivalent of an army barracks, where you get a bed and meals. Or, you could commute 2-3 hours each way, each day if you like, which lowers your cost of living, but have fun with that during the winter.

It's an extremely hard lifestyle. There's a reason North Dakota has thousands and thousands of unfilled jobs. Much of it is dangerous, back-breaking physical labor for 12-16 hours a day, which you have to perform whether it's 100 degrees or 30 below zero.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:28AM (#4969522)
I don't live in a bubble.

What the article doesn't really mention is future earning potential. $40K doesn't look bad when you are 19, but if you are late 30s with a house and kids and are still doing physical work and a 3 hour commute everyday it doesn't look so good.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:41AM (#4969565)
On the flip side, 18% of university graduates fail to even earn $20,000 per year. If you are going to roll the dice, $40K now and no income by age 40 is far better than $15K for the rest of your life. There are no guarantees in life, so why not make hay when the sun is shining?
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:45AM (#4969578)
Well that's an 18% "chance", I'm guessing a large number of those 18% will be people who either graduated doing something useless or had some other reason they could not/did not work a high paying job. Such as starting a family and only working part time, or some medical reason. So not quite rolling the dice.

I would still be reasonably confident that if you have a chance to do a good degree from a good school your outlook is a heck of a lot better than that.

Of course the future is never clear, but that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by glesica on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:04AM (#4969662)
Nope, you're living in a bubble. Not everyone went to a "good" school. This is one of the things that cracks me up about the HN community. It seems like everyone went to Stanford or MIT and the dumb kids went to CMU.

The vast, vast majority of people do not go to prestigious schools (if they did, those schools would no longer be prestigious, in some sense).

Additionally, these same people often lack social connections that, regardless of what people claim, are often key to getting into a good career track.

The whole "useful degree" argument also fails to hold water. Not everyone has the predisposition or personality to be an engineer. Those people have to do something. Most of the things they are able to do pay very little. So for these people, the chance to make $40k per year for a few years might be quite appealing.

So yes, if you just graduated from MIT with a technical degree and/or your parents are reasonably well-connected, then you are probably doing OK. Everyone else is struggling.

Stop pretending this isn't the case, entitlement isn't an attractive personality trait.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:15AM (#4969716)
Well, I didn't attend Stanford , MIT or CMU nor do I know anybody who did.

I also live somewhere that is about is far away from Silicon Valley economically (and geographically) as you can be in the developed world at least.

There are plenty of useful things you can study that aren't engineering.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:55AM (#4969622)
> that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do.

Statistically, you see a correlation of less risk by going to college because only people who fit a certain mould are able to go to college at all. For example, those with certain disabilities will be unable to study in school, and will also struggle in the workplace, which skews interpretations of the data in interesting ways.

Keep in mind that the college educated make up about 20-25% of the population. The unemployment rate is around 7%. That means that the vast majority of the population are employed just fine without degrees, and many are making decent incomes at that.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:17AM (#4969723)
True, but the article seems to talk about people who presumably had the option to go to college (i.e the grades and aptitude) but opted not to.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:20AM (#4969746)
If they have the aptitude and skill necessary to complete a degree, they likely also have the smarts to turn their career into more later in life. Maybe they intend to take that quick and easy money and use it to bootstrap a million dollar business in a few years?

I get the feeling that you feel they have no road ahead without a degree, which I don't quite understand.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:28AM (#4969786)
Not really, the issue is that having the right sort of experience to get ahead.

I would wager that you are more likely to get a job as a graduate that will provide you with useful experience.

A huge number of non grad jobs don't pay too bad by the standards of a younger person but really don't give the sorts of experience that help one get ahead.

I know smart people who skipped college to work retail and 10 years on are still pulling not much more than minimum wage. With a reasonable degree they would certainly have had more options open to them.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:42AM (#4969834)
I know people with degrees who have the same struggle, and people without degrees making six figure salaries. Of course anecdotes are just that.

I have never been able to find evidence that the 25% of the population made up of those with degrees fare better than the top 25% of the population without degrees. But since we are going on gut feelings here, my gut tells me that you will find no discernible difference between the two groups.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:56AM (#4969882)
Well any figures would be old and from the UK (where I am) but I remember £100K in lifetime earnings being banded around (bear in mind that education is cheaper here and the debt is less of an issue since you only have to pay it when you are earning above a threshold).

In my experience in the UK it really depends on what you are applying for, here the biggest companies tend to pay the best salaries and the biggest companies don't tend to like (for example) self taught developers.

If you look at job listings here for programmers a degree will be a requirement for more than 50% and they won't waive this because you have an impressive github.

Another big plus for having a degree is that it makes getting a VISA easier thus giving more options. Also there is also the advantage that by being in college/uni you will meet people who have the "right background" which can help in job search.

For example the father of one student in our CS class asked his son to tell him who the best 10 programmers in that year were and more or less hired them on the spot at graduation.

What I am saying in essence though is not "get a degree" vs "don't get a degree" but rather that saying "don't get a degree because you will be $X richer in 4 years time" seems like a rather weak argument.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @12:02PM (#4969907)
The UK must be fairly unique in this regard, because in North America companies are just happy to hire anyone who can open a text editor for programming jobs. Not even Google, who once was quite vocal about hiring only graduates of top universities, can concern themselves about your education anymore. There are just not enough people to even start to be choosy.

Since I am not familiar with the employment landscape in the UK, I am going to have to take your word for the satiation there. However, since this article is US-based, I do not feel that your picture paints the employment situation in the US in the proper light. Formal education does not have that kind of relevance on the western side of the pond.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by Retric on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @01:20PM (#4970214)
The unemployment numbers always dramatically favor people with collage degrees. Even when adjusted for age, race, gender, and medical conditions.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Saturday December 29, 2012 @12:59PM (#4982784)
Which only raises the question, if all other considerations are equal, why do some obtain degrees and others do not? Could it be those factor(s) that results in better employment opportunities rather than the degree itself?

A few points come to mind: (1) Access to money makes going to school and finding work easier. (2) A "go-getting" attitude makes successful completion of college and finding work easier. (3) Living in the right location (namely cities) makes going to college and finding work easier. (4) Simply being lucky makes the successful competition of college and finding work easier.

If you could find two people who are exactly equal in every single way, except the piece of paper in hand, would you find any employability differences between them? I'm highly skeptical that you would.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by icegreentea on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:57AM (#4969630)
The earning potential comes from up-skilling and potentially applying yourself to other fields - literally. For example, the 40k mark seems awfully low compared to the pay up in Alberta. Mind you, the quotes of ~100k+ are typically for skilled labor - typically welders or the like.

You will also note that generations of North Americans raised their family this way. Certainly not the easiest life, but definitely doable.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:04AM (#4969663)
True, but in such a case the real value of that first job comes from the training/education/experience it provides rather than the paycheck.

So it is the value of that which should be compared against the value of college. The article doesn't seem to put a lot of mention to this.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by ojbyrne on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:59AM (#4969638)
From what I've heard rents are pretty near NYC rents in the towns closest to the oil. Either Billings, Montana is far enough away that you can't commute, or Wolfram Alpha's numbers are out of date. The article even mentions $1500 rent.

The thing about cost of living adjustments to salaries is that sacrificing a standard of living to save more money is much easier in high cost of living areas.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by TylerE on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:59AM (#4969898)
The only people in a new york investment bank making $80k/yr are the janitors.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by protomyth on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @12:23PM (#4969984)
I'd say the pay listed in the article is a bit off. McDonald's workers in Williston ND (not far from the MT border ) make $15/hr or $31,200 starting.

Any quote of $40,000 is probably base salary without the overtime everyone is getting. If the kid learned how to do a vocation in high school / at home (e.g. welding), then they are probably getting a lot more. They started recruiting out of Canada because they were having a tough time getting welders in the USA[1].

The article does point out the biggest problem, finding a place to sleep. If I had the capital, I would probably build a capsule hotel[2] (modified a bit for Americans) with laundry and a drug store in the area. I have an uncle in the area renting 3 people parking places / power cord for their RV for $300/mo each and a mobile home for $1,200/mo. If you ever wanted to run a food truck or a business based on long hours / problematic shelter, this is a good place to try.

1) any job that cannot be done over the wire cannot be outsourced

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRT4dU6r-KQ

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by bmj on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:09AM (#4969429)
Compare this to racking up massive debt going to college without any guarantee of a decent job upon graduation.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:15AM (#4969459)
Not to mention, assuming four years of study is the alternative, it puts one about $1.6M ahead by retirement, even ignoring the costs of education itself.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:19AM (#4969480)
How you get the 1.6M figure?
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:21AM (#4969488)
Assumed a nominal 5% ROI on the $180K saved during those four years that would otherwise be not earned if going to school.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:30AM (#4969527)
5% would seem high to me and assumes that the money is saved an invested as opposed to spent on luxury goods. It also assumed that earnings potential throughout career will always be as good as that of an average college grad.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:37AM (#4969552)
> 5% would seem high to me

5% is a pretty standard rate used in these type of calculations. It might be on the high side currently, but it is also low for other periods of time, hence being a decent average to work with.

> and assumes that the money is saved an invested as opposed to spent on luxury goods.

Naturally, but the potential remains.

> It also assumed that earnings potential throughout career will always be as good as that of an average college grad.

It makes no such assumptions. Earnings beyond the first four years after high school are completely irrelevant to my calculations. You will still have $1.6M in hand if you never made another cent, assuming you do not touch the investment until retirement.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jiggy2011 on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @10:54AM (#4969619)
I assumed based on "it puts one about $1.6M ahead by retirement" and since you won't touch your retirement funds before your retirement (or at least not within 4 years) then it would make sense to take future earnings potential into account.

In other words by going to college you are still "investing" some amount of money in yourself for a future payoff that is presumably better, though of course may not necessarily be.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by randomdata on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @11:05AM (#4969666)
It is a valid point. Though according to the data, one really needs a post-graduate education to really see any kind of future payoff. By that point we could be looking at closer to a $3M difference. If you can make that up, then it is definitely worth it, but it is a long road ahead.

With all that said, education is still worth it for education's sake. You don't really need to justify it with future incomes and better jobs. I find it disconcerting that so many do.

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by bippi on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @12:02PM (#4969910)
Quoting Shakespeare won't get you very far at lunchtime.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by jetti on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @12:18PM (#4969969)
What other jobs can you do with only a high school education and make that kind of money? College isn't for everybody. For those who decide not to go, this sounds like it beats working multiple minimum wage jobs.
Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by rprasad on Wednesday December 26, 2012 @01:58PM (#4970376)
You are definitely living in a bubble. $40,000 [edit: $50,000k] a year plus benefits straight out of high school, with no experience or education requirements is an awesome job.

Sure, these guys have to work occasional 15 hour days, and get up at 4am. But so do many hackers their age, and lawyers and (business) analysts will frequently work 12 hours days regularly for not much more pay.

To put it in perspective (rough nationwide averages): teachers routinely make $30,000 starting. Most business majors will make $40k-50k starting as analysts or consultancy associates. Most lawyers will make between $30k-$80k (depending on the state and area of practice) if they can even find a paying job. Even engineers and programmers (as a group) only average $40k-$60k starting (not all STEM grads make as much as programmers).

Re:Pay in Oil Fields, Not College, Is Luring Youths in Montana by tptacek on Thursday December 27, 2012 @05:07PM (#4975294)
Firsthand: graduates from top tier law schools with good grades have a very good shot at 150k starting, even recently.

I know you're referring to lawyers in general, and top tier grads are a small subset. Just nerding out a little.