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Re:Thinking the unthinkable by javajosh on Sunday December 16, 2012 @02:34AM (#4927673)
>What were the environmental factors behind Lanza and Holmes (Aurora)? Both came from upper-middle class backgrounds. Both grew up in idyllic environments with "normal" parents with careers and health insurance.

This is, of course, the crux of the matter. Clearly there is something in America's environment that makes us far more prone to this sort of thing than other places, with or without gun control. Identifying what that is will be critical to preventing this from happening again. Gun control can reduce the body count, but even a body count of one (suicide) is not acceptable. The silver lining to this is that these events raise a dramatic warning to us that there is something deeply, seriously wrong with our culture.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by pjscott on Sunday December 16, 2012 @02:58AM (#4927706)
Do we actually have statistics showing America to be worse about this than other places? It sounds like the kind of thing that people just assume after hearing about a sensational, attention-grabbing tragedy.

Remember when there were huge epidemics of suicide and Satanic ritual abuse in the 80s? Or rather, people said there were. In reality, suicide rates remained mostly flat, even declining slightly overall, and the evil Satanic cults were a myth. So, be careful about postulating something deeply wrong with our culture, when there may well be another explanation.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by slyn on Sunday December 16, 2012 @03:34AM (#4927755)
>15 of the 25 worst mass shootings in the last 50 years took place in the United States. In second place is Finland, with two entries.

That's a bit of a disparity.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/n...

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by pjscott on Sunday December 16, 2012 @03:45AM (#4927780)
The United States also has more than 50 times the population of Finland. Normalize!
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by slyn on Sunday December 16, 2012 @04:15AM (#4927826)
Clearly you didn't take time to read the aforementioned article at all, or you would've seen the graph that puts the USA at roughly a bit more than triple the assault deaths per 100k vs an eyeball average of the other OECD nations (down from maybe 8-9 times as many in the 80s.)

I pulled the above statistic because of the specific context of mass shootings. But hey, at least you got a pithy retort out of it.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by mpweiher on Sunday December 16, 2012 @05:43AM (#4927982)
Gladly!

Firearm related death rate, per 100K of population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-re...

US: 9.0 Switzerland: 6.4 Finland: 3.64 Germany: 1.1 UK: 0.25

...

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by Firehed on Sunday December 16, 2012 @07:17AM (#4928144)
Why are we limiting to firearm-related deaths? Within hours of the event in CT, there was another mass attack at a school in China - that one by knife, wounding twenty or so.

While guns may have increased the severity of the damage, the lack of a gun did little to stop a similar event from taking place. People that want to do harm to others will find a way, and while there's something to be said for trying to lessen how much damage they can do, that seems to be a poor attempt at treating the symptom rather than the disease.

Put another way: let's look at the overall violent crime rates by country instead. Here we go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... US ranks at 4.2/100k

I'd also like to point out your selective data pull is very misleading (whether it was intentional or not I don't know; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). Of those 9 deaths per 100k, 5.75 are suicides and 0.27 are unintentional; only 2.98 were murders (so we have nearly 75% of our murders by gun, but overall a quite low murder rate compared to over a dozen countries at 30+/100k and four over 50). Also from missing from your quote - the US is #12 in terms of firearm deaths per capita, not #1 as your data implies.

The only data that is really relevant to gun control arguments are murders that would not have been possible without a gun and (probably more relevant) accidental gun deaths. Anyone sufficiently determined to kill themselves will find any number of ways, so that's almost completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by mpweiher on Sunday December 16, 2012 @08:10AM (#4928220)
Precisely: the attack in china wounded twenty. As of this writing none were killed. The "severity of the damage" is a highly relevant measure, not something to dismiss.

"...poor attempt at treating the symptom rather than the disease". Sorry, the symptoms (i.e. lots of people dead) are the problem here.

My data pull was primarily for the countries mentioned earlier, I added some others I find relevant because I have experience living there (never been to Finland). I did not imply the US was #1, the extract was obviously a very short one.

The Wikipedia page you cite tells essentially the same story as the Washington Post article: of the OECD countries, the US is by far the most violent, more than 4x more than Germany, for example. Take a look at the countries surrounding the US in the statistic! If you're not embarrassed, you're not paying attention.

The "would not have been possible without a gun" argument is specious, as is "anyone sufficiently determined" argument for suicides: you are assuming that anyone with a suicide attempt is sufficiently determined, as is someone wanting to kill someone. This is a fallacy, both logically and from what the data show.

Not being able to stop everyone is no excuse for not even trying to stop those that can be stopped (or reducing the damage...heck if no-one gut hurt, would the "rampage" even be a problem??)

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by dhimes on Sunday December 16, 2012 @09:16AM (#4928339)
In 2010 a similar attack occurred in China, and over twenty were killed.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by mpweiher on Sunday December 16, 2012 @09:35AM (#4928378)
Do you mean this series of attacks? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–2...

If Wikipedia is correct, this was a whole series of attacks, sometimes with multiple assailants, with each attack having far fewer fatalities, so the point about reducing the damage stands.

Still awful.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by dhimes on Sunday December 16, 2012 @02:57PM (#4929309)
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by goolulusaurs on Sunday December 16, 2012 @08:10PM (#4930350)
I believe we were ignoring the severity of the damage because we were attempting to investigate what mental factors went into making people decide to go on killing sprees. How much damage they did ultimately doesn't affect the factors that led them to decided to make the attempt.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by thinkling on Sunday December 16, 2012 @10:13AM (#4928461)
It seems that that data gives statistics for a single year, and not the same year for each country. While the annual gun-related death rate may be somewhat stable for the U.S., I would guess it varies a lot from year to year in smaller countries depending on whether there was a major incident that year or not. I'd want to look across a similar-size population (e.g. all of EU) and (say) a 10 year span, and then calculate #deaths/year/1,000 population
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by mpweiher on Sunday December 16, 2012 @12:11PM (#4928808)
The Wapo article links to a graph that has the "deaths due to assault" (not limited to guns) for OECD countries: http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2012/07/20/america-...

Luxembourg (total population 1/2 million) has the higher variance you mention, the rest of are pretty stable.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by justincormack on Sunday December 16, 2012 @04:20AM (#4927834)
Here is the list http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/20/the-worst-mass-shootings...

It certainly looks like Scandinavia and the UK might have a problem. Europe as a whole still has fewer than the US for a similar population but it is high. None for China, India or Brazil. So it is not just about normalisation...

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by EliRivers on Sunday December 16, 2012 @11:04AM (#4928587)
The UK did take some action after theirs; after Hungerford, all semi-automatic rifles (centre-ammunition) and shotguns taking four or more rounds were banned, and after Dunblane all cartridge ammunition handguns were banned within Great Britain (except .22 single-shot, which were then banned about 5 years later).

The most recent UK shooting of note, Derrick Bird, used a double-barrelled sawn-off shotgun and a .22 (bolt-action) rifle. Would it have been worse if he'd had handguns and semi-automatic rifles? We'll never know, but he did try to acquire another firearm mid-rampage so he clearly felt like he needed more firepower.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by mpweiher on Sunday December 16, 2012 @12:35PM (#4928871)
From that list, I count 16 events in the US and 4 in the EU. Populations are 501M (EU) and 316M (US) (Wikipedia). So 4:1 incidence rate, 6:1 adjusted for population. Very similar to the overall homicide and gun death rates.

I'd agree that Scandinavia has a bigger problem (EU would be at 2 without Finland). (Norway is not part of the EU, and I also didn't count the US soldier going on a rampage in Afghanistan).

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by justincormack on Sunday December 16, 2012 @05:29PM (#4929843)
Norway is culturally part of Europe, joining the EU does not really change much.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by mosselman on Sunday December 16, 2012 @10:11AM (#4928453)
Please. 'it is high' in Europe'? Playing it fast and loose with the word 'high' if you ask me.

Of those mentioned in the list; 6 in the past 25 years are in Europe. 3 shootings, on this list alone, happened in the US in the past 6 months! Most European countries probably haven't had any of this type of thing happen in the past 25+ years.

Re:Thinking the unthinkable by justincormack on Sunday December 16, 2012 @05:33PM (#4929860)
Well, its not very statistically significant anyway, but the number outside the US and Europe at all is very small. There are too many in Europe to say they are non existent... sure nothing like the US. Most European countries are very small which was what this thread was about.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by tylee78 on Monday December 17, 2012 @12:03AM (#4930916)
no. just a "honor" murder each week. usually knives though, so does not count.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by mosselman on Monday December 17, 2012 @04:02PM (#4934337)
You are right, knives don't count in comparing the amount of shootings. Also, Europe is not a Turkish mountain village.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by icebraining on Sunday December 16, 2012 @05:13AM (#4927934)
Apparently, Brazil had its first just last year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro_school_shooting
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by pm90 on Sunday December 16, 2012 @02:59AM (#4927709)
Have you considered that this might be a purely statistical phenomena? What I mean is, isn't it possible that such things occur in the US only because there are so many people in the US, and once the population gets large enough, the number of outliers get large enough, in absolute terms, to become noticeable? It's often forgotten that US has the 3rd largest population, after China and India (although admittedly far behind either one)
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by thinkling on Sunday December 16, 2012 @04:16AM (#4927827)
I'd certainly be curious to see statistics that adjust for population. The stat quoted by 'slyn above is that the next country for gun violence over the last 25 years would be Finland with 2 incidents, but Finland has 1/30th the population of the U.S. It would be more appropriate to look at the EU overall for comparison. Last year there was a shooting in Norway with 70+ dead and I believe one in southern France in a school.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by ht_th on Sunday December 16, 2012 @05:09AM (#4927918)
It is interesting to see of the Norway shooting falls in the same statistical category of "mad shooter" or in something like "homeland terrorism". But yes. There seems to be a rise of similar incidents all over the developed world, although access to guns is in the USA a lot easier than elsewhere and that reflects on these excesses. For example, knivings (is that a word?) seem to be more common than shootings around here.
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by syncopatience on Sunday December 16, 2012 @04:34PM (#4929632)
The most common term is "stabbing", e.g. "stabbings are up 25% this year."
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by ht_th on Monday December 17, 2012 @03:39AM (#4931418)
That makes sense: with a gun we shoot -> shooting; with a knife we stab -> stabbing. Although it could also be a slicing or dicing then, I suppose :-)
Re:Thinking the unthinkable by gyardley on Sunday December 16, 2012 @10:32AM (#4928501)
In my opinion, this is the correct way to think about the problem, but you should go deeper, and keep in mind that cultural traits aren't solely good or solely bad - they might be both good and bad, like a prescription medication with side-effects.

Elsewhere in this thread I wondered if American dynamism and individualism produces individuals both great and vile - and that America tempered the 'vile' segment with moral education and community ties that's since gone on the decline. That's my culturally-based theory, but I'm sure we can find other plausible ones as well.