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Re:Law school applications are collapsing by rayiner on Thursday December 13, 2012 @05:59PM (#4918618)
> But the demand for lawyers is completely cultural.

I don't think that's the case. People think that the U.S. has a lot of lawyers because we're a "litigious society" but I've never seen evidence suggesting that Americans are more likely to sue than other sorts of people.

I think the demand for lawyers is more structural than anything else, and there are a lot of dimensions to this. First, the amount of conflict rises proportionally with the number of interactions between people. This means larger societies have more (superlinearly more) conflict than smaller ones, more active economies have more conflict than less active ones, and heterogenous societies have more conflict than homogenous ones.

Second, different countries use different mechanisms to accomplish the same tasks. The U.S. is at one extreme--we use private litigation to handle things like employer/employee disputes that might in other countries be handled by a complaint to some sort of board. Litigation is, by design, the way to challenge most government action. In the regulatory regime, we skimp on government enforcement of things like financial or enviromental laws, and write in "citizen suit provisions" to allow private enforcement.

Third, the demand for lawyers depends on the structure of the economy. An economy based on financial services, which can result in expensive and complex disputes, needs many more lawyers than one based on agriculture.

Fourth, the number of lawyers in a country isn't directly proportional to the amount of conflict within the country itself. A country that hosts numerous multi-national corporations will have many lawyers working on disputes that actually arise in other countries. Moreover, a country with a sophisticated legal system will be asked to resolve disputes that only have a tenuous connection to the country. The U.S. is also a net exporter of legal services, in conjunction with its export of financial services. American firms do work for Brazilian companies doing IPOs in Brazilian markets. The reverse is never true.

An example of an (industrialized) country that has 1/10 as many lawyers per capita as the US is Finland. Can you compare the US with Finland? The US has 133 Fortune Global 500 companies, Finland has 1. The US has 9 cities as large or larger than Finland. The U.S. is extremely heterogenous. Finland is extremely homogenous. The US has to alter its laws to limit the number of foreign cases coming into New York City's courts (a city 4x as large as Finland). An American (or sometimes UK) firm is involved in some way in nearly every major IPO that happens in one of the world's large financial markets. How many Finnish firms are involved in American IPO's? Etc.

Re:Law school applications are collapsing by mjn on Thursday December 13, 2012 @06:15PM (#4918682)
Litigation is, by design, the way to challenge most government action.

This is a big difference, and is even used within government, for example when a state sues the federal government to challenge a law. For Constitutional things that is true in any country with a federalist system, since if a state/province argues the national government overstepped its authority, some kind of constitutional court needs to resolve the dispute. But the U.S. uses it even in statutory disputes. Congress will pass a fairly general law, delegate enforcement to bodies such as the EPA, and then you have years of litigation between the EPA, a state, and maybe even a municipality, over things such as new transit systems. In many other countries, even large ones, this is done more centrally. For example, if Paris decides to build a new line on the Paris metro, it will present a proposal to the national legislature, which will (if it agrees) pass a law specifically authorizing the construction of that line. After that happens, the line expansion becomes definitionally legal: the national parliament has passed a law authorizing it, which supersedes any previous laws, except for the constitution itself. So there is no grounds for anyone to sue to block the line on the basis of other laws (environmental laws, noise ordinances, etc.), since the legislature is presumed to have already weighed all those factors in passing the law authorizing the metro expansion. The U.S. Congress instead prefers to pass general guidelines and leave it up to the courts to decide whether a particular metro line follows those guidelines or not.

Re:Law school applications are collapsing by robbiep on Thursday December 13, 2012 @06:07PM (#4918648)
>>I don't think that's the case. People think that the U.S. has a lot of lawyers because we're a "litigious society" but I've never seen evidence suggesting that Americans are more likely to sue than other sorts of people.

USA: 5805 Suits per 100k people (cf. next highest - UK/England @ 3681 per 100k) - [1]

[1] http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/papers/pdf/R...

Re:Law school applications are collapsing by rayiner on Thursday December 13, 2012 @06:13PM (#4918668)
That by itself doesn't mean much. E.g. two multi-national companies have a dispute, it'll almost certainly get filed in the U.S. instead of somewhere else. That doesn't mean Americans are more likely to sue.
Re:Law school applications are collapsing by 001sky on Thursday December 13, 2012 @06:48PM (#4918810)
Its precisely this reason (ie, learning by doing) that proves the point you're arguing against. US is the most litigous society in the world, in part because USA believes in the laws and writes them to be litigated, and second because there is such experience in litigating. Thirdly, there is a culture of blame and responsibility shifting; which the law and legal profession is just the hired-help (not the problem per-se).
Re:Law school applications are collapsing by robbiep on Thursday December 13, 2012 @06:24PM (#4918716)
you could spin it whatever way you want until the cows come home, but the data does show that on face value Entities in the US are more prolific with litigation than Entities in other nations.

Saying that 2 multi-nationals are going to duke it out in the States over the rest of the world may or may not be true - (Are a major percentage of multi-nationals headquartered in the US? If they are lodging action in the US, is it because it is easier?)

But I would tend to think that 300 Million americans and their individual actions are going to be greatly more influential on the total case load and per capita case load in the US than the approximately 70,000 multinational companies - which would be like a drop in the ocean against the individual litigations.

Re:Law school applications are collapsing by rayiner on Thursday December 13, 2012 @07:24PM (#4918926)
You make a very good point about the relative volume, you're right that individual actions are going to overwhelm the number of international business disputes (multi-nationals tend to file in the US if they can, even if they are not headquartered here, because it's has the most well-developed legal system).

That said, number of cases still does not mean that people are litigious in the sense of resorting to lawsuits instead of other available means of dispute resolution. E.g., car collisions are a huge source of litigation. The US has 3.4x as many motor vehicle deaths per capita per year as the U.K. (and presumably, many more collisions too) because of our highly suburban structure. So if we have more motor vehicle/insurance lawsuits, it doesn't necessarily mean it's because we're quicker to rely on litigation. Employment litigation is another big one for regular people. Here in the US, if you think you were fired unfairly, there is no administrative agency that'll handle the dispute. If you think you were fired because of race you can complain to the EEOC, but either way the dispute will end up in court.

Re:Law school applications are collapsing by henrikschroder on Friday December 14, 2012 @10:21AM (#4921292)
> First, the amount of conflict rises proportionally with the number of interactions between people. This means larger societies have more (superlinearly more) conflict than smaller ones, more active economies have more conflict than less active ones, and heterogenous societies have more conflict than homogenous ones.

What you are saying is reaonable and might be true in a lot of places, but Japan has 1/50 as many lawyers per capita as the US. It's also much, much more homogenous than the US, but can that explain 1/50? There has to be more than that.

> Second, different countries use different mechanisms to accomplish the same tasks.

Yes, and that is completely cultural, not structural. The US has chosen certain mechanisms, as a result of that choice more lawyers are needed than elsewhere, but if that burden becomes too heavy, many americans might start choosing differently, might start resolving disputes in a cheaper way.

I'll give you that heterogenity and being the hub for international financial transactions increases the need, but I still think culture plays a large part as well, and, to get back to the original argument, that means that the American Bar Association and similar have to watch out, they can't assume the demand for legal services to be boundless in the same way as it is for medical services.

Re:Law school applications are collapsing by rayiner on Friday December 14, 2012 @01:07PM (#4922248)
Re: Japan, there is an old comment to a New York Times article that describes how that statistic is misleading: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/23/opinion/l-what-statistics-....

> Yes, and that is completely cultural, not structural. The US has chosen certain mechanisms

I think we just disagree on the meaning of "cultural" here. I consider the fact of whether you bring a dispute over an employment issue to a civil service agency versus a court to be a matter of structure, you consider it to be a matter of culture. My point is simply to point out that to a certain extent you're pushing on a balloon. Yes, we could restructure things to require less lawyers, but we'd likely require more civil servants instead.