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Re:How to Exist by sph on Saturday August 01, 2026 @02:28AM (#49131676)
There's a lot to do on a farm, yet no farmer is expected to be working a full 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, at moderate intensity. No farmer has to do something within the next hour or their boss shouts at them. No farmer has to feel bad, or need to catch up, if they have to take a day off unless it's planting season. No farmer has any qualm about ending a day early because they've done all they planned to do. No farmer obsesses with stimulant medication or correct dosage of modafinil to get through their daily work.

And there's a huge difference between a subsistence farmer, which most of humanity has been for most of history, and intensive farming, which admittedly benefits from machines, but it's anyway a much more regimented industrial operation.

Re:How to Exist by egocodedinsol on Saturday August 01, 2026 @06:39AM (#49133100)
Hired hands, serfs, migrant workers had all of that and more for most of human history.
Re:How to Exist by Schiendelman on Saturday August 01, 2026 @09:16AM (#49134181)
I recently read that serfs weren't expected to work more than a few hours a day until industrial automation really took hold. I wish I had the link, but it made sense - and then labor laws were a reaction to those expectations, not solving a long running problem.
Re:How to Exist by wbadart on Saturday August 01, 2026 @10:07AM (#49134590)
My favorite recent read on the topic was from Brett Devereaux: https://acoup.blog/2025/08/22/collections-life-work-death-an...

TL;DR: whether farming takes all your waking hours depends on the size of your lands and household

Re:How to Exist by fwipsy on Saturday August 01, 2026 @12:28PM (#49135800)
I thought of the same series, but that's not the tl;dr I would have chosen at all. I would have gone to part 4e where I found this quote near the end:

> We should also note that these women work an enormous amount. We estimated, you will recall, working hours for our male peasants on the order of 2,500 to 3,500 working hours per year, massively more than modern full-time employment (40 hours per week is ~2000, typically around 1,750 hours after sick time, vacation, holidays and such). By contrast our peasant women are working in this model 3,760 hours per year, significantly more than their fathers, husbands and brothers and wildly more than modern workers.

It's nice to think that our ancestors didn't have to work as hard, because it justifies our own desire for more leisure time. IMO that desire is justified anyways; but premodern subsistence farming/any sort of self-supported lifestyle is incredibly labor-intensive compared to modern agriculture, regardless of whether you're a serf or a freeholder.

Re:How to Exist by cyanregiment on Saturday August 01, 2026 @08:19AM (#49133785)
I mean, they would cut your balls off (castration) just to qualify you for unpaid labor in the old world.

> modafinil

Militaries once issued coca, while opium was sold at markets as recently as the 1930s (over-the-counter).

Across the board it seems like things were rougher and cruder “back then” whenever ever back then was.

They had more freedom in other ways.

Re:How to Exist by DrewADesign on Saturday August 01, 2026 @08:35AM (#49133894)
> I mean, they would cut your balls off (castration) just to qualify you for unpaid labor in the old world.

And they would kill slaves right here in the new world. Neither of those things is representative of farming as labor — it represents specific moral bankruptcies in those societies. There are plenty of small to medium sized farms where I live, and neither of those principles has applied to them for nearly 400 years, at least.

Re:How to Exist by cyanregiment on Saturday August 01, 2026 @08:57AM (#49134043)
Right, somewhere between the Crusades/Inquisitions (plural, cross-regional) and the Atlantic Slave Trade was the moral peak of humanity - is that the take?

Even on a quaint farm in the south of France the punishment for a servant disobeying their master was a lot worse than getting laid off with severance - one might say severance had a different meaning.

Re:How to Exist by DrewADesign on Saturday August 01, 2026 @09:02AM (#49134070)
> Right, somewhere between the Crusades/Inquisitions (plural, cross-regional) and the Atlantic Slave Trade was the moral peak of humanity - is that the take?

… what?

No. I’m saying that none of these societal tyrannies has anything to do with being a self-operated farm owner now.

Re:How to Exist by cyanregiment on Saturday August 01, 2026 @10:11AM (#49134631)
Oh I thought you said for 400+ years (small) farming has been as ethical as it is now.

I understand that you're saying:

> [slavery] is not representative of farming as labor

But I disagree, since it clearly has been. Military, prison, servitude, employment, even the tyranny of "the man of the house" - all these hierarchical authoritarian social structures (whether or not they were ever noble or righteous, or useful) have improved ethically over time in the lives of those subjected to the violence of these systems - the conditions used to be a lot worse, across the board.

Labor is not solved in terms of ethics, but it's a lot better now.

Re:How to Exist by cwmoore on Saturday August 01, 2026 @08:32AM (#49133866)
There are a few million people in jail and supervision in the USA, offloading the crudity and performing the work of incentivizing conformity, at slave wages as we speak.
Re:How to Exist by cyanregiment on Saturday August 01, 2026 @08:50AM (#49134006)
What was imprisonment like in 1920? 1320?

What year were the Mayans rolling heads down staircases?

I’ll take now

Re:How to Exist by folkrav on Saturday August 01, 2026 @10:12AM (#49134637)
“Things can’t be bad now cause they were bad before”
Re:How to Exist by cyanregiment on Saturday August 01, 2026 @10:34AM (#49134820)
"Things can't be good now cause they were good before"
Re:How to Exist by freak42 on Saturday August 01, 2026 @02:23PM (#49136966)
That doesn't work.
Re:How to Exist by folkrav on Saturday August 01, 2026 @06:24PM (#49139091)
I didn’t make the comparison in the first place.
Re:How to Exist by cwmoore on Saturday August 01, 2026 @09:39PM (#49140236)
Sure, or “things can’t be better because they were worse”
Re:How to Exist by cwmoore on Saturday August 01, 2026 @09:38PM (#49140232)
You don’t have a choice about that, and it isn’t a history race.

I’m just suggesting a world where jails and prisons are literally replaced with batteries and datacenters. It’s a medieval institution at best.

Re:How to Exist by grigri907 on Sunday August 02, 2026 @10:09PM (#49150428)
I don't know shit about farming but I still don't think there is a single true statement in what you've said. Why would a farmer not be expected to work a 40 hour week? What farmer doesn't have targets, goals, deadlines, constraints, expectations? You think agricultural workers don't depend on, use, and abuse drugs?!

This reads like, "My job is very complicated, yours is very simple."