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Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by Osmium on Monday December 10, 2012 @01:53PM (#4900825)
I think it's fair to say that any major service should be offering two factor authentication. Amazon does, Google does, Dropbox does, Facebook does. Why not Apple too? Why not Twitter?

Somewhat related, if anyone wants to get two factor auth working for their OS X login, instructions are at the bottom of this page:

https://code.google.com/p/google-authenticator/wiki/PamModul...

Though I can't speak to how well it works (if at all) it at least makes me hopeful someone will implement it more sensibly at a later date...

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by rdl on Monday December 10, 2012 @02:21PM (#4901003)
There are better ways to do "two factor authentication" than TOTP/HOTP, if you control the client device.

Apple could much more properly do something with embedded keys on the iPhone (and next-gen Macs), in addition to passwords, email, and KBA. I'd consider it acceptable if Apple restricted some actions to Apple client devices, if you've got an apple client device registered, at least as an option.

Twitter is unforgivable, though. They have a fucking mobile client and are pushing that hard (at the expense of their developers). They are fairly neutral and non-hated by both Apple and Google (and probably Microsoft and RIM too). They are pushing Twitter logins to services. They borged one of the best cryptographic software developers (Moxie). They have users in places like Syria where compromise of an account can lead to torture and death.

It would be so obvious to turn the Twitter mobile client into a key management app and security tool, both for Twitter and for services using Twitter login.

(Facebook could do the same, modulo some hate from Google and Apple).

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by Firehed on Monday December 10, 2012 @04:17PM (#4901543)
If you control the client device, it's not really suitable as a second factor in a two-factor authentication system.

To elaborate: on a PIN debit payment, for example, there are two factors - something you have (the debit card) and something you[1] know (the PIN). In the case of authorizing the purchase of an app, you obviously have physical access to the device, or else you wouldn't be able to get to the checkout screen. For an actual second factor in a MFA scheme, it would be necessary to have a _different_ device that only the user with authority to make a purchase would have access to.

One could argue that if the device is PIN-locked, this is sufficient; however, in this case, you're replacing a physical factor (having the device) with a knowledge factor (knowing the unlock code). Combined with the account password [2], you still only have one-factor auth, it's just two steps. This is like most banking logins: there's a single authentication factor - knowledge - but two different pieces of data are necessary.

Worse yet, that "mother's maiden name"-type info tends to be a) relatively easy to access as an unauthorized user and b) used to authorize password reset, thereby reducing the security of a possibly-great password down to your facebook account's privacy settings.

Suffice to say, proper MFA support when the device often used as the physical factor is part of what's being authenticated is non-trivial, and almost by definition requires additional hardware. Perhaps some sort of NFC/RFID tag that you'd keep in your wallet, or a less clumsy equivalent of an RSA keyfob (which is where TOTP came from in the first place). But the key takeaway here is that you cannot use the device being authenticated as part of the authentication scheme.

[1] and only you, I hope! otherwise there's no point. [2] or worse, not, as some have suggested for free or even paid apps

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by rdl on Monday December 10, 2012 @04:30PM (#4901620)
A hardware-managed asymmetric (e.g. x509) key on device, combined with a passphrase which can't be saved to the device (and is entered by the user each time) would be two factors.

If you trust the hardware enough, I'd even accept on-device pin checking (i.e. a 4-8 digit numeric passcode), verified inside the secure element, instead of a password which went to the remote server. It would be two factor local, and one factor to the server (operations proving control of the private key).

For this all to work, you need to 1) prevent users from saving the passcode (easily enforced by the mobile OS, and pretty safe for a 4-digit passcode) and 2) protect the key using a hardware secure element, and prevent users from copying it willy-nilly. Otherwise it could become a single factor ("saved key + saved passcode", stored in the same place) very easily. Depending on your system, you may have a mandatory requirement to prevent that technically, or do it through policy, or let users do it.

It's kind of a philosophical argument at what point something becomes something you know vs. something you have, if it's just a long number.

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by Firehed on Monday December 10, 2012 @05:25PM (#4901856)
I think you missed my point: phones can be stolen. If you watch me type in my passcode by looking over my shoulder on the train (knowledge factor is now compromised), then steal the thing and run off as the train is departing, then you have full access.

Go ahead and steal my RSA token, and see what good it does you on its own. None, right? Not unless you bludgeoned my password out of me first.

All of the "have" factors that I've seen are, fundamentally, just a big number that's hard to get at or copy (with the exception of a physical, metal key). There's some math done on that number to generate a one-time-use code and do it in such a way that you still can't access the big number, but if an attacker were to compromise the number, then yes, that factor is broken. The theory is that the device cannot leak the number, and therefore it will only ever be known by the authenticating party. Or, more accurately, that the knowledge contained within should only ever be able to exist in two physical places (one each with the party being authenticated and the party performing the authentication).

I'm guessing we're talking about slightly different things and use-cases, but it's impractical to know that without a lot of diagramming and back-and-forth.

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by rdl on Monday December 10, 2012 @05:32PM (#4901886)
Yeah, it's fair to say the unlock passcode on your phone is more vulnerable than a specific authentication password used during a web login. But other than length and how frequently it's exposed, it's not fundamentally different from shoulder-surfing that password and then stealing your keyfob. In both cases you can try to deactivate the account before the next login.

Biometrics are probably the best way to prove identity and control of your phone, locally. They already have a high-quality CCD. Biometrics are unpopular as something sent to remote devices for a variety of reasons, but should be much more palatable if they remain local-only.

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by BryantD on Monday December 10, 2012 @02:36PM (#4901093)
Duo Security has a tested module for OS X: https://www.duosecurity.com/docs/duounix

This doesn't help at all for Apple ID, though.

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by malbiniak on Monday December 10, 2012 @02:13PM (#4900947)
I'd be very leery of running any unofficial two factor authentication. Heck, even 1Password urged their users to wait out the initial Dropbox TFA rollout.

http://blog.agilebits.com/2012/08/27/dropbox-two-step-authen...

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by kmfrk on Monday December 10, 2012 @02:06PM (#4900901)
I'm sure it's not there for usability reasons.

That is no excuse for not providing basic TFA for users who know how important it is, however miserable the user experience may be.

Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by eridius on Monday December 10, 2012 @01:56PM (#4900840)
I don't think TFA works well for securing mobile devices, because the entire premise is that it sends the second authentication token to your mobile device.
Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by robmil on Monday December 10, 2012 @02:13PM (#4900942)
Even then, it would be better than the status quo — you'd need physical access to my phone to access my Apple account, preventing the kind of remote attacks that were made famous recently.
Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by duaneb on Monday December 10, 2012 @01:57PM (#4900850)
Ideally it would be a yubikey or something not attached to your phone anyway.
Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by Firehed on Monday December 10, 2012 @04:02PM (#4901468)
Where is MFA support on Facebook? That's something I'd like to enable...
Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by psherman on Monday December 10, 2012 @04:14PM (#4901532)
I don't have this activated myself, but I assume that Osmium is referring to this setting: Account Settings > Security > Login Approvals
Re:Apple really needs two passwords, not one for everything by Firehed on Monday December 10, 2012 @05:26PM (#4901859)
Ah, very cool - did not know that existed. Thanks!