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Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by droithomme on Friday November 30, 2012 @04:10PM (#4855457)
Were the operators of all the other dozens of routers, switches and exchange point nodes that the files passed through also arrested? Or did the police selectively choose to only arrest the operator of one particular node that just happens to also be used for preserving privacy?
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by pwniekins on Friday November 30, 2012 @04:30PM (#4855564)
These are the nonsensical laws that result from "illegal data".
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by duaneb on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:04PM (#4855710)
Well, the alternative is... legal child porn?

Not saying I like the laws. But i don't know of an alternative to holding people accountable for data.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by joshAg on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:22PM (#4855804)
Criminalize the purposeful making of such data, but legalize possession of all data.

think of it like this: it is legal to posses or make video footage of a murder. but it is still illegal to kill someone for the purpose of making such a film.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by fatbird on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:42PM (#4855879)
This proposal seems especially weak given the ease of anonymously creating such material and 'seeding' it.

The point of criminalizing the data is to suppress the market for it in order to reduce the incentives to create it.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by forgottenpaswrd on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:08PM (#4855975)
What I believe is weak is that someone could put files in your computer and you become a criminal, completely out of proportion response.

"Suppressing" the market is impossible. How did it work with drugs? or with alcohol?

The law of the unintended consequences strikes again.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by tzs on Friday November 30, 2012 @07:20PM (#4856236)
> "Suppressing" the market is impossible. How did it work with drugs? or with alcohol?

For alcohol, consumption shortly after Prohibition in the US fell to about 30% of pre-Prohibition levels. It then increased over the next few years to about 60-70% of pre-Prohibition levels. It stayed at that level until Prohibition was repealed, and stayed there for a bit after then climbed over the next decade back to pre-Prohibition levels. Cite: Alcohol Consumption During Prohibition, Jeffrey A. Miron and Jeffrey Zwiebel, The American Economic Review, Vol. 81, No. 2 (May, 1991), pp. 242-247.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by honesty on Saturday December 08, 2012 @04:46PM (#4892795)
Yes, yes, lovely, and what happened to crime during that time ?
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by tjoff on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:02PM (#4855958)
While that is a noble goal, does it work? And is it really worth the sacrifice?

Yes, it is awkward to compare something as awful with something as intangible as anonymity. But if you don't draw the line somewhere you will not be able to have a functional society - in which case we might as well be as humane as humanly possible and make good use of our nukes and make sure that there will be no human suffering in the future to worry about.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by bcoates on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:07PM (#4855972)
It doesn't sound easy at all, most other crimes don't require you to produce and widely distribute evidence of the crime.

I'm more worried about all the people abusing children without doing us the courtesy of publicizing the fact on the Internet.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by joshAg on Friday November 30, 2012 @07:07PM (#4856188)
how well has that worked out with drugs? with alcohol in the 1920s? with the RIAA and MPAAs fight against torrenting?
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by forgottenpaswrd on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:00PM (#4855947)
"Well, the alternative is... legal child porn?"

The alternative is police doing their job and prosecuting the people that sexual abuse children, not the people that own the channels used by them.

If they prosecute the people that own the channels every time those are used badly it means somebody will have to intercept and analyze ALL COMMUNICATIONS.

People in power have passion for power and control, they use the excuse of thinking of children for extending their power, they want to know everything from everybody. This is absolute power and is way more dangerous than child pornography because it affects the 100% of the population, not a 1 per 100.000.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by forkrulassail on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:11PM (#4855737)
Related article: http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-reasons-child-porn-mus...

The concept is also touched on in the Assange book.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by belorn on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:32PM (#4856054)
There are two type of arguments/answers to this question. One is morally, and one is practical, and since we are all very practical people, I will start with that.

If the goal is to minimize the number of abused children, the methods used should follow a cost benefit analyze to use the finite resources of cash, work hours, and political focus. If a method A, lets call this a child porn blacklist and obligated recording and data mining of every person data traffic to enforce a data ban on child pornography gives say 5% deterrent of abuses for $100 billions, and method B), that educate teachers to see signs of abuse and have mandatory counsel at hand in schools and daycare for a cost of say $10 billions and that has a reduction of abuse cases of around 25%, the choice should be obvious where the money, work and political focus should go. While police and ISP still could do a token effort if they stumble onto something, that effort must not produce less result than if the time and money went to educating the teachers and counsels.

In a practical sense, education is just one of the more obvious thing one can do. Statistics show that somewhere of 95-99% something of cases does not involve a camera, and the people most likely to abuse kids are someone in the kids family. Using that data, and data on how little effective chasing child porn has to reduce future abuses, we should do better in the methods being applied to reduce child abuse.

But that's the practical argument. what about the moral one. Here I point slightly towards a suggested mandatory medical examination of children, a law that has got shot down every single time it has been suggested. but is that law more morally wrong than recoding every single word anyone ever say for indefinite time? its clearly a very much more effective approach to have regular medical examination, and if we are already throwing out moral objections to being recorded all the time, this should not be a big issue? that surveillance has a clear and scientific proven negative effect on society, democracy and science, should also be clearly weight in.

As I see it, current politics are applying ineffective, expensive and morally outrightous methods to deter child abuse, while obvious and effective methods goes unused. At the same time, the ineffective methods are doing long term damage to societies base values.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by anonymous on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:31PM (#4855837)
Well, what happens when someone makes a bomb threat from a public payphone? It's basically the same situation. There's no clear cut way the police should continue their investigations at that point. Still, people making bomb threads are getting arrested, and people transferring illegal data are getting arrested too. Most of the time because they messed up at some point. Outlawing Tor (or payphones) would maybe stop a few of the few individuals that slip through law enforcement's net, but there are still other means for them and each round of legislation yields diminished returns.
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by cynicalkane on Friday November 30, 2012 @04:52PM (#4855668)
What the heck? The point of Tor is nobody but the exit node can be easily identified. Are you demanding the authorities have the resources to completely crack Tor before they can arrest anyone? That is probably not the best way to protest this action.
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by polshaw on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:05PM (#4855712)
No, he is saying that the exit node's role is little different from that of any other node that the traffic is routed through (including) after the request hits the exit node-- eg the exit node operator's ISP.
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by danielweber on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:46PM (#4855894)
Can anyone just decide to become a common carrier?
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by stfu on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:00PM (#4855946)
Would be an interesting idea to juggle different constructs in order to preserve Tor exit nodes. Maybe they could join together to form some kind of legal entity that acts as the owner of the hardware acting as the node. Would something like this be enough to claim that he only rented out the specific tor machine, therefore not getting the rest of his hardware raided?
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by danielweber on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:13PM (#4855997)
It would also be interesting to see if the operators of the Tor network want to subject themselves to the legal requirements of being a common carrier.
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by anigbrowl on Friday November 30, 2012 @04:29PM (#4855561)
just happens to also be used for preserving privacy

As if there were no correlation between that and the use of the service for distributing CP. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to get exercised about the invasion of privacy aspect, considering much greater invasions of both person and privacy that take place in the manufacture of child pornography. Liberty does not subsist in the oppression of others.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by mistercow on Friday November 30, 2012 @04:49PM (#4855651)
It's not possible to create a system which protects the anonymity and privacy of users with integrity, but not of criminals. The cost of a free society is that sometimes people will do bad things and get away with it.

As regards Tor, it's extremely debatable that its existence has any impact at all on the distribution of child pornography. If you don't care about hurting people, there are way more effective ways to protect your anonymity than Tor.

In addition, Tor is an incredibly useful tool for fighting corruption in countries where online privacy would otherwise be non-existent.

So on the one hand it's a tool that gives anonymity to a group that already has it. On the other hand, it's a tool that aids in reducing human rights abuses across the board, including human trafficking.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by Hannan on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:03PM (#4855705)
>> It's not possible to create a system which protects the and privacy of users with integrity, but not of criminals.

Do you have more information or references on this? It seems very intuitively correct to me, but I was hoping someone much more intelligent than me has actually formalized somehow.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by erjiang on Friday November 30, 2012 @06:12PM (#4855993)
Actually, just consider that illegality is defined by other humans, often arbitrarily.

A system that protects the privacy of users who have "American" free speech is simultaneously a system that protects "criminals" who violate blasphemy, royal-insult, obscenity, or any number of other laws in other countries.

Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by mistercow on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:31PM (#4855839)
I'm not sure there's any way to formalize it really. It follows pretty much in one step from the axiom "your computer doesn't know if you're scum or not". And if we had the strong AI needed to change that, we'd just be letting a computer invade our privacy and judge us instead of a human or government.
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by tzs on Friday November 30, 2012 @07:30PM (#4856263)
Every time the AI checks and finds out that you are not a scum, its memory could be wiped so that it retains no knowledge of anything private it learned about you during the check.
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by mistercow on Saturday December 01, 2012 @11:14AM (#4858020)
That only solves one minor issue with loss of privacy.
Re:Tor operator charged for child porn transmitted over his ... by kevinskii on Friday November 30, 2012 @05:37PM (#4855863)
The sentiments of the parent comment may differ from yours (and mine), but they are intelligently stated and do not deserve to be downvoted.