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Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by tptacek on Monday May 11, 2026 @02:35PM (#48098863)
Wholesale population displacement is explicitly not (by itself) genocide under the convention. Genocide is an intent crime, and the intent has to be the eradication of the targeted ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. Kidnapping all the children in an occupied territory and dispersing them so they can't be returned to their families is genocidal. Mass displacement isn't.

The fixation on the term "genocide" has been a major own-goal for advocates of Palestinians. It was deliberately defined to be a difficult bar to clear. "Warm crimes" and "ethnic cleansing" are easy claims to make in the region, and ordinary people don't care about the distinction between "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide"; that term would have served just as well, without the escape hatch "genocide" provides.

Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by _alternator_ on Monday May 11, 2026 @02:39PM (#48098924)
So... "statements from leaders that suggest genocidal intent" ... meets the genocide bar, yes? I'll just quote wikipedia:

The Gaza genocide is the ongoing,[19][20] intentional, and systematic destruction of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip carried out by Israel during the Gaza war. It encompasses mass killings, deliberate starvation, infliction of serious bodily and mental harm, and prevention of births. Other acts include blockading, destroying civilian infrastructure, destroying healthcare facilities, killing healthcare workers and aid-seekers, causing mass forced displacement, committing sexual violence, and destroying educational, religious, and cultural sites.[21] The genocide has been recognised by a United Nations special committee[22] and commission of inquiry,[21] the International Association of Genocide Scholars,[23][24] multiple human rights groups,[c] state governments, numerous genocide studies and international law scholars,[30][31] and other experts.[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by tptacek on Monday May 11, 2026 @02:48PM (#48099056)
There are certainly people involved in the Israeli government that have expressed genocidal intent. The problem is that you can say that about basically every state in the world. It can't be the case that the moment a state commits an ethnically-targeted war crime it is per se committing genocide because you can find someone in the majority, the opposition, or the administrative state that has embraced genocidal logic. The logic has to animate the whole conflict.

You've rattled off a list of war crimes, many of which I agree with you about unreservedly, all of which are colorable. I don't think there's much doubt about the impact of Israel's post-October-7 policy on Gazans. But so long as you remained fixed on the term "genocide", you'll forever be arguing with opponents who, at least in the current trajectory of the conflict, have the better side of the legal argument.

Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by _alternator_ on Monday May 11, 2026 @02:59PM (#48099202)
I'm no genocide expert, but it does seem like legal scholars who _are_ genocide experts agree that the facts here seem to clearly meet the bar. The people who you credit with "hav[ing] the better side of the legal argument" do not seem, from my vantage, to be arguing in good faith. They are trying to bog us down in semantics when a truly horrifying crime is happening, and saying that we can't call a horse a horse is not helping.

I'll also say this: I greatly sympathize with Israel and Jews more generally here. The problem at the core remains global antisemitism; it's the reason Israel needed (and still needs!) to exist, and the reason Jews globally feel threatened. Antisemitism in the middle east is particularly pernicious, but it's not much better in Europe or the Americas. It doesn't just feel like a dangerous wolrd for Jews, it _is_ a dangerous world.

That doesn't change my opinion about the situation in Gaza---there's ample evidence that it's a genocide. But I hope this helps people see that we can, and should, hold these two truths at once. Jews are persecuted, and are in a precarious situation globally. In fear and in anguish, the state of Israel is performing unconscionable deeds in Gaza. The root cause is antisemitism; if we could somehow find a solution to that, you'd solve the whole conflict in the middle east. But good luck.

Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by tptacek on Monday May 11, 2026 @03:04PM (#48099256)
Really the only thing that moved me to comment here, besides message board vulnerability amplified by waiting for a Rust compile run to finish, was the implication upthread that mass displacement of populations was genocidal. The rest of it I don't think there's enough daylight between us to debate usefully.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by Hikikomori on Monday May 11, 2026 @06:30PM (#48101588)
Pretty disingenuous to pretend that's the only thing that was listed.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by rbanffy on Friday May 15, 2026 @02:37AM (#48145277)
> The problem at the core remains global antisemitism; it's the reason Israel needed (and still needs!) to exist, and the reason Jews globally feel threatened

I don’t think a genocide helps with antisemitism at all. In fact, by engaging in such horrific acts, the Israeli government makes an effective argument against the existence of any ethnostate.

I am not sure the continued existence of Israel as a local military power serves the interests of the Jewish diaspora.

> A central cause is antisemitism; if we could somehow find a solution to that

I say that with a heavy heart, and I don’t offer solutions at this point in history. The current status quo is unsustainable in the long term.

Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by lorecore on Monday May 11, 2026 @08:21PM (#48102583)
> The fixation on the term "genocide" has been a major own-goal for advocates of Palestinians

While I, and many others think that Israel is committing genocide, this is not an "own-goal". The only people playing semantics here are Zionists who are staunchly pro-Israel.

Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by tptacek on Monday May 11, 2026 @08:36PM (#48102686)
I think you're going to find that "everybody who does not agree with me on the precise particulars of my conclusions is foursquare in league with my opponents" is not the winning strategy it might feel like here.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by lorecore on Monday May 11, 2026 @08:43PM (#48102745)
It was you who made the claim that identifying Israel's actions as a genocide (as agreed upon by many genocide experts and international organizations) was an "own-goal". That is to say that by your logic, if you feel that Israel is committing genocide, you should keep quiet about it because you may turn some mythical constituency into a pro-Israel position by simply stating that opinion.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by tptacek on Monday May 11, 2026 @08:51PM (#48102820)
I don't think the pro-Israel position is "mythical", but I can imagine that if you go out of your way to stay in spaces that affirm your own beliefs it probably does feel that way.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by lorecore on Monday May 11, 2026 @08:53PM (#48102838)
I didn't say that the pro-Israel position is mythical. I said that no one became pro-Israel because people are saying that Israel is committing genocide. They were pro-Israel to start and just use that as a rhetorical device to try to get people to stop saying Israel is committing genocide.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by mhb on Thursday May 14, 2026 @09:00AM (#48134789)
What do you mean by "Zionists"?
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by lorecore on Thursday May 14, 2026 @08:34PM (#48143039)
The definition of Zionism is: people who believe Israel has a right to exist.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by mhb on Friday May 15, 2026 @09:24AM (#48148295)
So we're all Abolitionists? Pakistanists?
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by lorecore on Friday May 15, 2026 @12:53PM (#48150925)
I don’t understand your reply. What does Pakistan have to do with anything? Abolitionists? Abolish what, Israel? Sure, but I’ve never heard anyone refer to themselves like that.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by mhb on Friday May 15, 2026 @05:43PM (#48154301)
The point is that the term Zionist makes as much sense as Abolitionist. Abolitionists succeeded. Israel exists. Pakistan exists. If you support the extermination of Jews and the country of Israel, just say so. Pretending that "Zionist" means something is brain dead.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by lorecore on Friday May 15, 2026 @05:49PM (#48154359)
No one needs to be exterminated, they can just leave. And yes, I fully support (and demand) Palestine be returned to the Palestinians. No one is hiding from that position. Nazi Germany no longer exists and Israel will follow the same fate.
Re:Microsoft Israel chief leaves amid ethical controversy by pcthrowaway on Tuesday May 12, 2026 @04:37AM (#48105723)
> and the intent has to be the eradication of the targeted ethnic, national, racial, or religious group

Your use of the word "eradication" suggests total annihilation, but genocide refers to the destruction of such a targeted group in whole or in part.

You might argue that this can be vague and would allow any ethnic cleansing to be described as a genocide; in fact this is a point of contention among genocide scholars.

Certainly we'd both agree that Israel as a whole is carrying out at least partial destruction of the Palestinian people residing in Palestine, and that many Israeli politicians are calling for total or near-total destruction, many IDF soldiers conduct themselves accordingly, and their military actions involve indiscriminate killing/maiming often enough that there is a strong case their eventual goal is total or near-total destruction.

Put another way, there is no compelling argument that Israel conducts itself, in its extensive operations in Gaza/West Bank, with any goal of Palestinians eventually living freely there.