I said "I looked but couldn't find it." If you think that's calling you a liar then you have big problems. I grant that you were right on that point, I was wrong. Cool. You sound like you know a lot about Persian rhetoric. Maybe you speak Farsi? No, then where are you getting this information? Are you aware there was a cooling of US-Iran relations during the presidency of Khatami? You'd be aware if you read what I wrote earlier.

I assume that you're equally upset when the wife of the 'democracy-loving' 'crown prince of Iran' says "Death to the Left"?

Are you going to address anything else that I mentioned, or do you just do selective rebuttals?

> They held those people for over 400 days.

And? 200-500k Iranians died during the Iran-Iraq war, supported by the US. 290 civilians died when Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down.

Let me repeat a few things for you that you ignored.

Embassy staff was destroying evidence of the 1953 coup when the embassy was taken, and the US didn't admit to its role in the coup until 2009. But you trust everything Steve Witkoff says right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shredded_1979-09-01_1305Z...

You don't care that Reagan had a deal with the mullahs to keep those 400 Americans hostage?

You don't care that Reagan & Republicans sold weapons to Iran, which apparently definitely wants to murder your parents and grandparents and your best friends?

You don't care that the US helped Saddam invade and gassing Iranian cities, villages, and civilians because Iran held Americans hostage for 444 days? Are you ok?

I literally googled 'death to america chant'. That was the extent of the depth of what you presented me immediately before stating "Hopefully you can appreciate why your feelings don't trump the ground truth.". A 10 year olds feelings are what they are. I grew up with an inherent distrust of Iran/Islam because of Iranian words/actions. Those actions that turned me off may be justified in your mind, but does not make their impacts/consequences zero, and part of that is I get to have my own feelings about Iran based on Iran's supreme Islamic religious leaders and their followers calling my my nation's destruction for over 40 years, 70 years after the 1953 actions. Over half of America wasn't even born then.

You are doing way to much defining some caricature of me to engage with you.

"But you trust everything Steve Witkoff says right? " "You don't care that Reagan" "You don't care that Reagan" "You don't care that the US "

That is not engaging in discussion. Nor does it address what I said, it only attempts to justify calls for the death of millions by Iran (and two entire societies, the USA, then immediately the chant follows with calles for the death of Israel). I have stated elsewhere what the US did is vile. Nixon is vile. Read my comment history, I hate Reagan. But that doesn't then lead to a framework for why calling for revenge killing of millions and two entire societies is OK by a country's leaders and supreme religious experts/theologians. It is wrong. Especially coming from supreme religious leaders. Yet not one person replying to me is willing to admit that is vile coming from a religious leader. No one will admit calling for revenge killing is not acceptable, especially at the national leadership level/social death scale and against two entire societies.

And it is a call for death. It goes 'death to America, death to Israel' and Iran VERY VERY MUCH DOES want Israel dead/gone/destroyed. It would make no sense that the preceding reference to the USA (considered the great satan) would be more benevolent than that following "death to Israel" (the little satan).

I glanced at some of your other comments.

You think that when Trump calls for death of their civilization it’s rhetorical bluster, but when Iran says death to America it’s real.

You think Shia are more dangerous to America than Sunni because of words, completely ignoring 9/11.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47896662

Khomeini wrote a book about his views and plans. So why did the US and the West stand by and let him take over Iran? How come when Khomeini stepped off the plane he was flanked by a US ambassador and a rabbi?

https://youtu.be/7vxNVLC8EE8?t=646&si=JgLbYTHfbVp0A3Ky

You care more about words than the actual gassing and murder of Iranian civilians by US-supported Saddam Hussein?

When I visited Iran in 2008, half of my extended family had pictures of their kids on the wall who they lost during the Iraq-Iran war.

So why should anyone care how you felt when you were 10 years old?

Israel wants Palestine gone and everyone around them weak, Iran wants Israel gone. What’s actually happening on the ground? Who’s closer to achieving their goals? Are you aware Israel funded Hamas, Al-Qaeda, and ISIS? Do you think Israel actually wants a strong secular Iran?

I do believe you’re traumatized by what you heard when you were little, which is probably why you’re stuck at a child’s pathos-based reasoning, and you block out anything that doesn’t your childhood memory.

So you admit 'death to America, death to Israel' means death to Israel, and by extension the death to America means death to America?

I think both statements are vile. But the people who who called out Trump aren't willing to admit that when Iran says 'death to America, death to Israel' that is vile and evil as well.

Again, multiple things can be evil. You keep trying to imply only one thing can be, and that me caring about X means I don't care about Y when I simply am keeping to the discussion about X. You are free to start a separate discussion about Y or bring to light other horrible things. We have finally reached the point where you don't deny that 'death to America, death to Israel' means what it says but instead have to redirect so as not to address it.

> multiple things can be evil. You keep trying to imply only one thing can be

No, never did I imply that. I'm educating you on the the major arguments against your position which you seem unaware of.

Just here I agreed with you that Oct 7 and the Israeli response to it are both wrong. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47921011

> We have finally reached the point where you don't deny that 'death to America, death to Israel' means what it says but instead have to redirect so as not to address it

No, we haven't reached any such point. Death to the oppressor is a very reasonable thing to say. How you follow through is what matters. Reacting to actual violence with violent words is reasonable too. I know it's inconvenient, but there is in fact a rhetorical aspect to "death to XYZ" but you have not been informed of it because the US wanted you to be scared for life of Iran. Just like the US didn't tell you that they were helping Saddam gas Iranians.

The US (amongst other western powers) is responsible for the current situation in Iran, they have blood on their hands, and every time they do damage the regime or to the country without actually toppling the regime, they are strengthening the islamic republic, like a bad venereal disease that never goes away.

I wasn't redirecting, you keep selectively answering my replies and ignoring what's inconvenient. In terms of redirection though, here is a fun read about the immune system from the point of view of bacteria:

The Acquired Immune System - A Vantage from Beneath https://www.cell.com/immunity/fulltext/S1074-7613(04)00307-3

I think there is a lot to learn from how the body actually deals and effectively tames the trillions of microbe present on every mucosal surface of the body.

Key quote: "By selecting for evermore-devious parasites, the immune system is the cause of its own necessity."

It turns out that the solution is not to try to kill them or physically exclude them (that works only as long as they are not starved, they turn suicidal if they start dying too fast, and we actually need them around - just like we need Iran's oil), but to remove the cause of them trying to cross our barriers. That's what mucus does - it actually gives bacteria a slow but continuous source of energy (O-glycans) that they can live on but is too complex to digest quickly so that they can't take over. I'll spare you the details unless you're interested but it's kind of poetic the way natural selection came up with its version of "turn the other cheek" millions of years before us, then went on to ignore it for short-term gain - and now it's unclear again if the microbes or the vertebrates will win in the end.

I'm sorry your 'this is why religious leaders calling for death to two societies is valid because 1953 and 1980' doesn't resonate with me. I know you think it's intellectually lazy of me not to want to wipe out Saudi Arabia because of 9/11 but I'm just not connecting with what you are selling.

Religious leaders calling for death is wrong, 100% of the time. You aren't going to convince me to change that position, ever.

You never explained why 'death to Israel' means actually working for the death/destruction of Israeli society but the proceeding 'death to the USA' is just impassioned rhetoric.

I don’t know what you’re on about. I never made a distinction between death to America and death to Israel, you keep trying to put those words in my mouth for some reason.

You seem to think that calling for destruction is worse than actual destruction. We’re never going to agree.

Death to America and death to Israel is not a Shia policy, it’s an Iranian self-defense slogan. Hence why Ayatollah Sistani and his ilk never really chanted those slogans. Khomeini is a Shia usurper who used existing anti-Western sentiment to get power for his specific brand of Shi’ism. Try reading any book on the Iranian revolution.

Yeah, death to people who are killing me. Makes sense to me. Religion is obviously just a multiplier and a way to control people and that’s why I’m against all theocracy and most religions in general. I don’t see how it’s better if a secular leader says it, which is what you’re implying.