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Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by Karunamon on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @03:17PM (#4689859)
Calling the software that Zynga makes a "game" is insulting to real games. Zynga's are usually different skins on top of a number incrementing simulator (for example, anything with "ville" in the name), that happen to increase a little bit faster if you bug your friends (often and repeatedly) and have them increment their numbers too, and you can only increment your numbers so often - but more if you pay real cash money!

There's usually no skill, no challenge, no fun, just a bald-faced hook into the effort/reward system in the mind.

The closest thing Zynga has to real games are Bingo, Poker, and Words With Friends. I'm not even going to count that last one because they bought it from someone else.

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by jrockway on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @03:45PM (#4690012)
All games can be boiled down to a one-phrase description. If you talk about real games, you can categorize them as "trick-taking" or "deck-building" and so on. The details are what make the games fun, not the basic mechanics.

(Therefore, "increment a number" games could theoretically be fun. Though I personally find them more boring than watching paint dry. At least the paint eventually dries and you can move on to something else.)

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by MartinCron on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @03:24PM (#4689905)
Thank you. Glad to see that someone got my joke.
Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by audiodude on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @05:00PM (#4690312)
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. My mom used to play some tropical island game. She told me that she loved hearing the waves crash as she "landed on her island". For her, that game was every bit as entertaining as Borderlands 2 is for some hardcore console gamer.
Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by marshray on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @05:34PM (#4690451)
Well, there's no way your data will be complete until you get your mom to do an in-depth review of Borderlands 2.
Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by zevyoura on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @06:07PM (#4690605)
Do you consider WoW a game?
Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by Karunamon on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @07:23PM (#4690871)
WoW still has a skill component. I did mention MMOs..
Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by benihana on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @04:08PM (#4690101)
>Calling the software that Zynga makes a "game" is insulting to real games.

No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because you don't think they're games doesn't make it fact. They make games, and people criticize them for it. The only thing your post did was help better prove OP's point.

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by Karunamon on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @04:25PM (#4690173)
>They make games, and people criticize them for it.

First, Zynga is not criticized for making games, they're criticized for making Skinner boxes and passing them off as games. Quality, in other words.

Second, just because you think they make games doesn't make it fact.

Definition of a game per Google:

A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

Zynga's "games" (with very few exceptions) lack any form of skill, strength, or luck. Push button, receive reward, pay us cash or spam your friends and you can push the button more often.

That is literally all there is to most Zynga games. I'm not even engaging in hyperbole here! Compare with even the most grindtastic MMO's out there, even the most rehashed FPS or football franchise you can think of, and there's still a skill component that these wannabes can't grok.

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by meepmorp on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @10:19PM (#4691333)
> Definition of a game per Google: > A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

Resorting to a dictionary definition to argue a point is nearly always a sign you've got a weak argument. But in this case, I want to point out the "esp." just after the first comma in the definition you cite.

It means especially. In context, that means that games need not adhere to the conditions specified in the subordinate clause.

Also, I swear Wittgenstein had something to say on this topic.

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by Karunamon on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @10:23PM (#4691340)
>Resorting to a dictionary definition to argue a point is nearly always a sign you've got a weak argument.

Or a sign that your opponent is redefining words to fit their argument instead of using the commonly accepted one. Are you telling me it's unfair to refer to an authoritative source as to the meaning of a word?

In any case, there has to be some kind of definition or else the word becomes meaningless. By defining Farmville as a "game", you could just as easily define twiddling numbers on an Excel sheet as a "game". Where do you stop? Is Farmville a game just because it has a pretty skin?

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by meepmorp on Sunday November 04, 2012 @06:43PM (#4741538)
> Are you telling me it's unfair to refer to an authoritative source as to the meaning of a word?

Unfair, no. A sign that the argument is weak, yes. Particularly in this case.

Also, use is meaning. Dictionaries are authoritative only in the sense that they capture current use at the time of publication. Even in that case, they're often lacking in some word senses and/or connotation because they don't exist in the writer's dialect.

>By defining Farmville as a "game", you could just as easily define twiddling numbers on an Excel sheet as a "game".

Are you twiddling the numbers as a form of play? Then yes, that'd be a game according to the definition given above. Games don't need to be challenging, or even all that entertaining.

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by danilocampos on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @04:20PM (#4690155)
They make crappy games and people criticize them for the crappiness, not the game part.
Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by MartinCron on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @05:39PM (#4690476)
No True Scotsman fallacy

It is, at least for me, more just transparent snobbery than the No True Scotsman fallacy. The same way some video game journalists don't like to cover Minecraft, as it's "not a real video game".

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by eropple on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @09:23PM (#4691209)
Or it's an interpretation that the motives of the creator are important.

In my mind, Zynga "games" are to games what crack dealers are to entrepreneurs. It may be a subset, but it's a subset about which I believe quite firmly that those that participate should be shunned. They are an unethical company that produce products that I can describe only as predatory.

(And, yes, World of Warcraft falls in the same bucket.)

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by gameshot911 on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @06:41PM (#4690727)
Side discussion concerning the No True Scotsman fallacy. If 100/100 people agreed with "A", does the fallacy still apply? Can you say "just because everyone thinks 'X' doesn't make it fact"^?

^I know that people believing something doesn't define facts - in this case I'm wondering if the fallacy would still apply.

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by StavrosK on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @07:14PM (#4690843)
Of course it would still apply. The difference here is that some people have a different (yet still immutable) definition for what a game is.

The fallacy is when you keep changing the definition to fit the data.

Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by Karunamon on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @08:47PM (#4691114)
Except that, at least in my case, no such change was made. I took the definition I used directly from a dictionary. It looks like in this case someone is trying really hard to shout down an argument as fallacy when no such error is being made.
Re:Zynga May Have Just Laid Off 100+ Employees From Its Aust... by StavrosK on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @09:35PM (#4691236)
I know, that's what I was saying.