Are you kidding?

Currently I wouldn't dare to enter the US, while I'm sure I would be relatively safe in China. And: even before Trump the TSA had elements of despotism. All the while I never heard of Europeans being treated like shit in China -- simply the better hosts!

100% this.

I keep mentioning that to people when they bring up a quite anti-China narrative (or paranoia). Most people in the western hemisphere are way more likely to be negatively impacted by the US than China.

Europeans, Canadians etc are less likely to travel to China so of course Chinese media spying would be less immediately detrimental than the spying of US companies. But even when traveling to China, it's less likely you'll be treated poorly than when traveling to the US.

We in the US have been so propagandized against China that even relatively progressive people that are completely against the Trump admin think China is an authoritarian hellscape. And while China is obviously not a utopia, I'd be hard pressed to find a metric there that hasn't surpassed our own.

China has no free speech and will start flexing its imperial muscle more now that the US is climbing down from the world stage.

China is alright if you keep your head down and you're not of the wrong ethnicity, locked up in a work camp and not allowed to have kids, or too openly gay or trans and so on.

Ah, so you do have free speech, I take it? Unless you criticise a certain assassinated far right activist, of course.

And don’t even get me started on flexing an imperial muscle. South America and the EU would like a word.

The irony is that you are posting your comment on an American forum.

I don’t see the irony, frankly. I’m pretty sure any journey to the USA would end at the border for everything I have written on this American forum.

US is regressing on trans rights, abortion, etc. Free speech is under threat with the president “attacking” media institutions. You have daylight murder by federal agents followed by propaganda campaigns to blame the victims themselves or on the Democratic Party to create more political friction.

No one is saying China is perfect in these threads, we’re just saying the US isn’t necessarily better. Two countries can be shitty simultaneously.

Two countries can be shitty but the US hasn’t yet put a million of its citizens in jail because of ethnicity. Maybe going there in the future. That won’t white wash what China is.

It has put like 3 million, a quite a lot due to their social class. Disproportionately impacting a minority ethnicity in the process.

Still not making China a good country

No one is arguing that lol. I think you’re missing the point of these comments.

I didn't state that, at all.

The point was that the US touts itself as a free country while having many perverse incentives and mechanisms oppressing part of its citizenry. There's a veneer on top of it of individual freedoms compared to a state like China but in reality it can be as brutal against its population as any totalitarian state, it's just that the power to subjugate and oppress isn't centralised and is more diffused through its institutions across history.

It's not too far in history that the US was deploying the National Guard to fire live ammo against protesters, American police has military-grade equipment deployed against their citizens, I think it makes it even harder that the oppressive power isn't centralised since to uproot this there are countless battles to be won for any change to happen. It's institutionalised, any big institution is really hard to change.

> but the US hasn’t yet put a million of its citizens in jail because of ethnicity

Even current events show this to be false, let alone: Jim Crow, Japanese Internment, Native American reservations, etc ...

The US, with around 4% of world population, has around 25% of the worlds prisoners, vastly higher in total and percentage wise than China.

It would not be higher in total if you included the estimated number of Uyghurs detained in internment camps. Even considering that, there are a couple other factors that don't make the numbers you presented mean much.

One factor is that the U.S. is the 3rd largest by population and will always skew higher in total prisoners than many other countries.

The other factor which explains the relatively high incarceration rate within the country's population is the investment into policing and reporting. We can take a city like Shanghai for example. They had a population size of around ~24m+ in ~2018-2019 [1] but only had 50k cops [2] (I couldn't find citable numbers for today but the data isn't too outdated). New York City, in comparison, has a current current population size of around ~8m [3] with 33k cops [4].

The 2 countries bigger than the U.S., India and China, also historically have had less investment in law enforcement, especially in rural areas [5][6].

[1] https://tjj.sh.gov.cn/tjnj/nj19.htm?d1=2019tjnje/E0201.htm

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Municipal_Public_Secu...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City

[4] https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/about/about-nypd/about-nypd-la...

[5] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3215865/chi...

[6] https://villagesquare.in/rural-crime-and-policing-in-indias-...

The history of civilization over the past 5,000 years proves that China has never been an empire of foreign aggression. On the contrary, look at the 300-year-old modern history of the United States. Take off the tinted glasses of racism and savor it for yourself!

China has literally has been an empire most of it's history. It's like the 3rd biggest country on the planet. Just Tibet itself is huge and was absorbed into China not so long ago.

As the bard said: "You think your living in the land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy."

US is quickly heading the direction of China, but China is much much further along the path of authoritarian hellscape: no free speech at all, no freedom of the press, all social media is heavily censored, and the GFW allows government control of the Internet (yes, I know, VPNs exist, but they can be shut down and aren't even on the radar of the vast majority of the population.) All this was already the case in 2017 when I left China and it's even more controlled now (COVID only increased government controls). You don't see this as a foreigner, but as a Chinese you absolutely do. Trust me when I say it's still, even with the current wanna-be dictator and his white supremist minions, much worse than the US in terms of freedoms.

On the other hand, China doesn't suffer from the US' current bone-headed anti-Science and "climate change is a hoax" nonsense, and have a much clearer understanding of where they need to continue investing in order to become the world leader economically and even politically, which Trump in his stupidity is handing them on a silver platter. So in that sense they are far ahead.

China is also of course much smarter when it comes to foreign policy, though Trump has set such a low bar that even a monkey could do better.

I'd rather not live in either country, but if I had to choose, I'd pick the US and it's not even close.

Agreed. I think the original thread was about which country you would rather visit as a European. And it seems that China comes ahead

China is a great place to visit. Living there long-term is an entirely different matter.

> I never heard of Europeans being treated like shit in China -- simply the better hosts!

Yeah. Also lets not forget:

- Citizens from most EU countries can now enter China visa free. No ESTA and no other administrative crap. Generally no problem to enter and leave the country as long as you respect the law there.

- The Chinese authority are very cooperative when it is about granting some visting Visa to researchers. Most Chinese research centers and Universities have a some kind of direct link to an office that can bypass some of the procedures.

The situation is way easier than it was 10y ago.

If you dig into my comment history, i've been pretty pro China (despite a ding i will do every time: China rural areas are decaying faster than in the west. I think the main contributor is the difference between contryside/rural pay (80-100€ when i was there) and city/industrial pay (700-800€ with no qualification at the time)).

I will still add a caveat with what you've said: China make/unmake rules pretty fast, and while not hidden, those are not easy to find and understand (especially when you take into account enforcement). When those rules touch on immigration policy or on societal stuff change, it can surprise you. As a westerner you should always be OK, but this is a country with no rule of law, you should always keep that in mind.

> As a westerner you should always be OK, but this is a country with no rule of law.

Let's be clear: I am not discussing nor defend China internal policies here. I honestly do not care and I am not pro China.

I am pointing a single fact: As a EU researcher, it is easier now to go to China than to go the US for conferences and collaboration. And we do feel more welcome there.

That single fact alone should terrify any US politician with a brain.

Sorry, it wasn't a criticism of what you said, i wanted to add a caveat because what you said was true in 99.9999% of cases, but as China laws application are arbitrary (and their laws change all the time), you still ought to be careful when going there.

I'm guessing my flawed use of an asterisk, resulting in a weird highlighting out of context, confused your interpretation of what I was saying, because I believe we're suggesting the same thing.